P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

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P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Re: P&R I 10c Rivadavia Red
Post by Rein » 14 Feb 2013 17:17

After more than a year let's make a recall:

type I - sheet-fed 10c red
type II - sheet-fed 10c red
type III - reel-fed 10c red
type IV - reel-fed 10c red; 10c chestnut-brown - dot above the first "N" of Bernardino
type V - reel-fed 10c red; 10c chestnut-brown - horizontal scratch above the third "A "of Rivadavia
type VI - reel-fed 10c chestnut-brown - L-shaped appendix in front of the "B"

Type IV and type V are both distributed over the same cylinder - as Guillermo had showed us.

And possibly there is a still different version of type II in September 1938! The only sheet-fed version to exist with S.O. too!

Type I - 01.10.1935
Type II - 17.12.1935
Type III - 01.06.1936
Type IV - July/Sept? 1936
Type V - July/Sept? 1936
Type VI - 1944?

to be continued ....
4 [FOUR] years gone by!

Where is the impact???
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Rein » 14 Dec 2016 08:49 escribió:Subject: Todo sobre el 10c Rivadavia Rojo P y R I
educ escribió:http://foro.filateliaargentina.org/down ... cvRojo.zip
ahora si creo que esta bien.
Eduardo

A great story by Eduardo L. A. Cappa, BUT not really having read all what has been written in this Foro so far!

Simply dismissing what I discovered years ago and published here and what Educ calls TIPO II-RII ....

Apart from describing the various grupos-raíz there is no mention about the distinctions in comb perforations! The comb for the sheet-fed stamps moved horizontally, the comb for the reel-fed stamps moved vertically, which can be seen from the extra narrow/broad teeth at the left/right hand or top/bottom end of the stamps...

And there is ONE more sheet-fed printing to be found i.e. that of September 1938:
The Rivadavia that vanished into thin air
Post by Rein » 04 Apr 2010 12:22

The 10c Rivadavia has been terribly neglected in the Argentinean catalogues. Not only the offset-litho version but also the typography version. The base stamps are so common that nobody had really bothered too much ....

Let us start with the 10c in typography!

The red coloured version is supposed to have 3 versions if we are to believe the catalogues - and by now you should know that I do not believe things that easily!

Relying a lot on the article made by Leopoldo Tenorio Casal (Nr 40 Revista del Centro Filatélico de la Plata - 1947) we should make a distinction between the sheet-fed and the reel-fed versions!

10c red:

01.10.1935 sheet-fed, 1st plate [only 1 printing]; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.5mm, the design 21.0x27.0mm. Known as tipo I with comb perforation 13.333:13.147 [13 1/2:13 in M.T.].
17.12.1935 sheet-fed, 2nd plate [2 printings]; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.5mm, the design 20.6x26.7mm. Known as tipo II with comb perforation 13.333:13.147 [13 1/2:13 in M.T.]
01.06.1936 reel-fed, 11 printings; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.0mm, the design 20.0x26.5mm. Known as tipo II with comb perforation 13.333:13.333 [13 1/2 in M.T.]
x.09.1938 sheet-fed, 3rd plate [2 printings]; no further details but for the fact that according to Tenorio Casal the word "Bernardino" is back to the length of the 1st plate....

The latter fact should mean that we have at least 4 different 10c red! At least, as we do NOT know how different are the subsequent printings and we know already that for the 5c Moreno the 19.03.1937 reel-fed printings (13 in total) had 2 major design types!!!

Although the catalogues mention the differences in perforation, none does mention the differences in sizes [both design and stamp height! ]

to be continued .....
Imagen
Or even getting further back in history .....
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Carlos Gomez in the CEFILOZA catalogue is giving us the following information:

Imagen

WIth 2 types of the 10c Rivadavia in typography... So far!
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Then GZ continues:

Imagen

Imagen

Is there a difference between 517B and 517C???

Tipo I has 20.5x27.0mm; tipo II (A) 20.5x26.5mm; tipo II (B) 20.0x26.8mm and tipo II (C) has 20.0x26.5mm???

4 different sizes!!!

And if so where does 517B come from?????
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

It is wonderful to state that the cylinders are composed of either J or N!

But no mentioning of who published this TWO types first!? Neither mentioning me nor Guillermo who did an awful important study of these stamps .....


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Imagen

Why not giving them type numbers??? Like Type I and type II.

And then now type IV and type V ??

Type III being the reel-fed version type II!?
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

I was TOO early to mention type IV [or type V]!!!!

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

517C had size 20.0x26.5 PLUS the "J' and "N" .... How about 536???


WHERE does type IV come from??????


And what happened to type III for the 10c Rivadavia in typography???

And there was a change in size from 20.0x26.5 to 19.5x26.0!!! Early 1944?????
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

And what about the watermarks???

536 has "Sol Redondo RA" and 10.0x10.5 ...
536A has "Sol Ovalado RA" and 10.0x10.5 ...
536B has "Sol Ovalado RA" and 9.5x11.0 ...

All 3 are orthogonal watermarks allegedly originating from the US. "Paralela al lado menor".

The change in size occurs for 536B so WHY not splitting up 536B????

Imagen
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Imagen Imagen

Compare the JABOT:


Imagen
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

All the Jabot characteristics are there !

J1 - J2 - J3

Not just in the red 10c Rivadavia but also in the chestnut one!!!

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Imagen

And inb the chestnut version we also have the "N" type!!!

Imagen

WHY does Gomez not mention these "J" and "N' types???? Or type IV and type V as I used to call them????
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

As important as the name tablet had been for distinguishing type I and II, the same goes for the new cylinder. They can be recognized by the different outlook of the left hand part of the name tablet:

Imagen

The differences in sizes from 20.5x27.0 via 20.0x26.5mm towards 19.5x26.0 coincide with my own observations. The size of the 10c had changed constantly.

A quick measuring of the word "Bernardino" will result in 5.8 [originally 6.2mm!] will help.

Imagen

Having had type I, II, III plus IV and V (J and N) brings us now to type VI!


Imagen


Its most characteristic feature is the "L" shaped appendix:

Imagen
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

According to Gomez type VI comes on 4 types of watermark combined with coated paper:

- North American orthogonal wmk 9.5x11.0mm Sun - 1944/1945
- English [=Wiggins Teape!] parallel wmk 9.5x9.5mm Sun - 1949
- English [=Wiggins Teape! Tela!] parallel wmk 9.5x9.5mm Sun - 1949
- English [=Wiggins Teape!] orthogonal wmk 10.0x10.5mm Sun - 1950

1949 Tela parallel wmk:

Imagen
Imagen

1950 Orthogonal wmk:


Imagen
Imagen
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

The so-called North American paper!

Imagen

Imagen

The Jabots at the left, the type VI at the right with a cancellation of August 1944 ...


Imagen

ImagenImagen

Compare the 5c Revolution of 1943:

Imagen
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por educ »

Si no entiendo mal la discusión, aclaro que: en las primeras impreciones tipograficas del 10c marron se usaron las mismas planchas o identico diseño que se uso para el 10c rojo de rotativa de agosto de 1936, Tipo II R2,

Aunque los sellos de las imagenes son la variedad jabot , tambien esta la del punto sobre la N, y sus posiciones relativas coinciden, sobre el fondo que se ve un cuadriculado o lineas de puntos, se puede producir tal ves por la mala calidad del carton usado para obtener el estereotipo o tal vez, como dice Merlo que creia que de debian al tipo encapado que tenia el paper. A los catalogos les falta mucho.

Un gran saludo

Eduardo
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Eduardo,

Yes, the first printings of the 10c chestnut had the same cylinders as the 10c red with its "J"'s and "N"! So far, this pleads for a GOOD quality of the carton for the stereotypes! Even such tiny dots as in the J3 got reproduced!

Only when preparing a NEW cylinder [smaller sized, my type VI] the quality of the stereotypes got WORSE even though the types of paper [and coatings] were better! Of maybe just because of that :)

I am just wondering WHY CEFILOZA is mentioning the "J" and "N" for the 10c red and NOT for the 10c chestnut????

Could somebody notify Carlos Gomez??

saludos, Rein
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Re: P&R 10c Rivadavia typography orphanage

Mensaje por Rein »

Is there a difference between 517B and 517C???

Tipo I has 20.5x27.0mm; tipo II (A) 20.5x26.5mm; tipo II (B) 20.0x26.8mm and tipo II (C) has 20.0x26.5mm???

4 different sizes!!!

And if so where does 517B come from?????
It is sclear now the 517B is my tipo III

Reel-fed printing NOT having the "J" nor the "N"....
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