1911 LAbrador definitives

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1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

The Labrador stamps with the hexagonal watermark are supposed to exist in a "borroso" version originating from Germany and a "nitida" (neat) version originating from Italy [Pietro Miliani] as stated in the DeLuca standard work of 1939:
" La impresión se hizo en tipografía sobre papel aleman con filigrana "sol hexagonos verticales, hexagonos horizontales y sin filigrana."
and
En 1915 por falta de papel filigranado, por los acontecimientos que conmovieron a la humanidad en aquellas épocas, se vio precisada a realizar la impresión de algunas especies en papel obra tipo N°4, suministrado por la fábrica nacional de "Zárate", hasta que se recibió el papel que se había adquirido en Italia a la Casa de Pietro Miliani de acuerdo al contrato celebrado con la misma en febrero de 1915. Esta emisión, que se llamó provisional por la calidad del papel empleado, no fue, en realidad, vendida totalmente por el correo. En efecto; se aprovechó para caracterizar una cantidad con las iniciales de los ministerios y otra para la Caja Nacional de Ahorro Postal con fines de propaganda y con la leyenda "Ahorro Postal".
Recién en octubre de 1915 aparecieron los sellos impresos en el papelde de la precipitada casa Miliani. Las características de éste diferían del aleman por su menor brillantes superficial y por la mejor nitidez de la filigrana"


(thanks to Hector78)

We had a discussion in this Foro last year about how to differentiate and whether there was a difference at all!
Looking through my Labrador stamps there are some that I expect to have thick lines and others that are somewhat thinner. I am beginning to doubt whether there is really a difference. Stamps with a 1912-1914 date stamp should have thick lines, later on there may be thinner lines....... But is there a substantial difference??? Or are we just papagayos repeating for 90 years what might have been the initial situation in 1912 [thick] contrasting with the later [post-1915] situation [thin]????
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

Rein » 29 Oct 2009 17:05 escribió: Sergio,

if the difference lies NOT in the contrast thick versus thin lines, but diffuse versus neat, then still we have a problem! All hexagonal watermarks are transposed that is the felt side of the stamp is NOT the front of the stamp as it usually is but the back of the stamp that has a perfectly flat surface!

Whether the origin of the paper is German of Italian - do we have proof of that??? - is not so relevant, what is relevant is whether we can tell the difference without needing the help of a forensic institute like CSI .

The differences are not that obvious and certainly not measurable. We can compare our Labrador with the 1816-1916 commemoratives that are supposed to have only 1 origin

Look at he dates! all before 1915!

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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

SIR GOMEZ » 20 Jun 2010 12:35 escribió: PREGUNTA:
Con respectos a estos sellos hay que guiarse solo por el filigrana y no por si observan a simplevista, porque estoy viendo que hay sellos que no se ven si no les pones bencina no se ven el filigrana claramente, pero la misma es clara y definida cuando se le agrega el liquido.
Estoy en lo correcto en estooo ototalmente equivocado

Saludos....
zeus25971 » 20 Jun 2010 13:5' escribió: Hola, si la filigrana es definida, entonces es "nitida" independientemente si se ve en bencina o no!!

Saludos
Luis
This re-newed interest is another trigger for me to re-open the discussion that some may feel is senseless......
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

What has been left out of the discussions AND the description of these definitives at all is the variety in types of gum!

Since it had been made clear to me that the types of gum in the PyR I series are vital in telling us whether we have imported paper or national paper, it occurred to me that a similar might be valid for the earlier definitives!

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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

As we all can see the stamp in the middle has the thickest lines so this must be German!

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Judging from the date it may as well be true!

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The 1913 dated stamp also has the more smooth surface at the back! The other two have the surface of thwe back slightly roughened with the watermark nearly in relief but that goes for the front side as well!
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

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The 1911 Labrador is supposed to have 2 German papers with watermark sun and 2 papers with hexagonals - one German and one Italian.... What is certain about all this? Do we have evidence from the archives about it???

Kneitschel [1958] refers to

1911 - papel alemán delgado. Filigrana sol con rayos ondulados [G]
1911 - papel alemán mediano. Filigrana sol con rayos rectos [F]
1912 - papel alemán. Filigrana hexágonos, de lineas borrosos
1915 - papel italiano. Filigrana hexágonos nitidos, de lineas más delgados [J]

As the 1916 Independence set is only issued with the Italian paper it is obvious to study that type of paper carefully and try to describe it. As to the surfaces it reminds us of the 1948 Italian paper referred to by us as rayos rectos nitidos! The lines [of the hexagonals] are clearly visible and contrasting with the "fields" using a magnifying glass from close distance; at the back of the stamp the fields are yellowish and rather smooth, the lines are felt-like and its fibres seem to stand loose/apart resulting in more transparant lines. At the front the surface is somewhat rough and where the lines are the surface seems thinner and affected.

The German paper with hexagonals have the hexagonals visible from some distance just as the Italian does although sometimes it hardly shows at all. Using the magnifying glass from a close distance at the back of the stamp the contrast between the lines and the fields is weak if present at all! The surface of the back is very even and smooth - giving the idea we are dealing with the felt-side and not the wire-side; the distribution/spread of fibres does not seem to change or stop at the lines; the transparency of the lines is weak and the fibres do not stand apart; mostly we can see a vague hue of minute black dots spread allover the surface - this smoothness is at times not present at all and the surface can be rather rough showing no lines at all when watching it from a short distance. I would not be surprised if the German paper with hexagonals should be split up in sub-types.

The above described overall differences between the Italian paper [felt-like, reminding of RR Nitidos; contrasting lines] and the German papers can be found in the "Sol con Rayos" as well!!!!!!

I would tend to suggest the supposed papel delgado is German and the supposed mediano is Italian!!!!!!
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

Kneitschel [1958] refers to the watermarked papers:

1911 - papel alemán delgado. Filigrana sol con rayos ondulados [G]
1911 - papel alemán mediano. Filigrana sol con rayos rectos [F]
1912 - papel alemán. Filigrana hexágonos, de lineas borrosos
1915 - papel italiano. Filigrana hexágonos nitidos, de lineas más delgados [J]

and adds a unwatermarked papwr:

1915 - papel francés delgado of mediano

for 3 values: 1c, 2c and 5c. A 30c is supposed to exist as well but very rare....

All filigrana sol watermarks are supposed to have an utmost right margin of the sheets where there was no watermark! So pairs should exist with of the left stamp having a watermark and the right stamp being without. How to make sure that what we have as a single stamp is the without watermark version of 1915????
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

We should take care of the direction of paper as both directions occur in the without watermark! The "M" version could come from the "smiling sun" watermarks! The "m" version does not exist for the "smiling sun"!

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Última edición por Rein el 23 Sep 2010 08:01, editado 1 vez en total.
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

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Última edición por Rein el 23 Sep 2010 08:03, editado 2 veces en total.
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

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The "m" version!

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Última edición por Rein el 23 Sep 2010 08:19, editado 2 veces en total.
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

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The "m" version!

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Última edición por Rein el 23 Sep 2010 08:05, editado 1 vez en total.
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

The "m" version!

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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

Who was the designer of these stamps? The 5c and 12c in recess by the American Banknote Company had been designed/engraved by JM Lubary as his name is at the bottom of the stamps.
Villa56 » 30 Dec 2009 12:19 escribió:
En la emisión grabados e impresos en American Bank, sabemos que el artista es Lubary. (tamaño grande)
En las restantes emisiones tipografiadas e impresas en Bs. As., también es Lubary el artista?...
Puede ser esta su marca?...
un saludo. Omar.

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Omar y Néstor,

how come the catalogues do NOT mention the names of Argentinean designers???? Must have been known at least since 1939 when De Luca wrote his master piece??? Has our beloved Victor overlooked something???
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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=3975&p=34501&hili ... ers#p34501

I had always wondered why the catalogues do NOT mention the names of the designers nor engravers of stamps!

By chance I found some pictures on the Sofira website that at least for the period 1907-1936 gives some unknown info:

http://www.sofira.org.ar/html/fotos_sofira.html


Crabbe Paris
1907-1912 JSM en ovalo

Joaquin Algueró
1911-1919 Labrador

Horacio Benesch
1911 DF Sarmiento

Patricio Grau
1916-1922 JSM
1915 Independencia
1918 J. Pujol
1920 M. Belgrano
1920 J. Urquiza;
1921 B. Mitré
1921 Congreso Postal Panamericano
1926 B. Rivadavia
1926 Centenario Correo Argentino

Baldomero Condoy
1923-1935 JSM

G.D. Coca
1927-1928 Correo Aereo


Joaquin Algueró seems to match the initials as displayed above!

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Re: 1911 LAbrador definitives

Mensaje por Rein »

The 2 stamps that started off the issue - the 5c red and 12c blue - had been printed by the American Bnknote Company, New York, in recess. Designed by J.M. Lubary, also engraved by Lubary ?

The size of the stamp is slightly larger than the definitive stamps of this set. Printed on paper with a watermark "Sun without a face" that does not always show at first face when looking at the back of the stamp.
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