The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

This sub-forum is dedicated to one of the most interesting and complex definitive series in 20th Century philately: the Argentina 1935-51 Definitives

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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 22 Oct 2010 07:05

The Chapter on Postal Rates is a very handy one! Who would not want to know why do we have a 2 1/2c Braille?

You can find it in the chapter on postal rates plus a whole lot more....

The rate for international braille post had been 2c for some time per 1000 grams, was increased in 1938 to 2 1/2c- per 19.09.1938! But within 2 years got decreased again to 2c/1000grams. The 2 1/2c stamp was demonetized per 01.04.1940!

The same rate change per 19.09.1938 caused the colour changes for all the 3c, 4c, 10c, 12c, 15c and 20c. And the introduction of a 8c value for small packets. It took almost half a year to realize the new stamps of which the start of dispensing (iniciacion del expendio) was 01.04.1939 according to De Luca! Not 20.03.1939?????!!!!!

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 22 Oct 2010 08:41

A Chapter sadly missed in Pettigiani's book could have told us about the postal stationery!

There are printed matter wrappers, postcards, letters etc, all with a printed stamp belonging to the P&R I series.

Postal Stationery are a logical extension to a collection of mere stamps and halfway to the postal history of this splendid series....

Two different postcards 12c B. Mitré used abroad:

The card cancelled 22.12.1940 reached Europe (Belgium) as can be seen by the German censor-mark:

Imagen

The card cancelled 01.01.1942 did not reach Europe (Belgium) as can be seen by the red mark indicating that it had been returned to sender. However the card did get a British censor-mark:

Imagen

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 22 Oct 2010 08:42

The 5c cover was opened by censor by whom and why??? The letter was addressed to an Argentinean address???

Imagen

Imagen

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 22 Oct 2010 08:43

The 10c postcard, cancelled 26.12.1940 reached Europe (Belgium) as can be seen by the German censor-mark :

Imagen

to be continued ....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 22 Oct 2010 13:03

Rein escribiste:The 5c Antarctic 25.05.1947:

No watermark, symmetrical paper mesh, longitudinal direction of paper - "M":

Imagen

Imagen

At first sight not a trace of paper mesh! Although!?!?

But at close distance we can see the tiny pin points!

Imagen

The pin points have got nothing to do with the paper mesh structure but probably with the way the water got drained out of the paper pulp during the paper making process...

to be continued ...


Imagen

Imagen

pay attention to the fibres at the front of the stamp! Typical feature of Zárate!

Imagen

The "Sin Filigrana " group needs a lot of work still! There is some justification for suggesting that the paper wire for the 5c San Martin had been asymmetrical instead of symmetrical. This 5c might been called "cerrada" but the direction of paper is that of the SF 2 -> "m" [a thing nor Bardi nor Pettigiani seem to able to establish.....]

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 23 Oct 2010 06:17

rubiera » 21 Oct 2010 08:50 escribiste:Hacia una clasificacion consistente de P y R I

Ahora que tenemos una profunda indagacion sobre los papeles de esta serie en los libros publicados recientemente por Pettigiani y Bardi, y tambien con los aportes de los miembros de este foro, estoy pensando en re-organizar las imagenes que aqui tenemos y mostrarlas de una manera coherente.

Les pido me digan que les parece de esta idea, y si quieren contribuir.

Los libros Bardi y Pettigiani me ayudan muchisimo, pero creo que con las imagenes es como podemos llegar a algo que nos ayude a todos, y especialmente a los principiantes.....aunque en mi humilde opinion aun me considero un principiante!

saludos

tony


After the publications by both Bardi and Pettigiani on the subject of the P&R I the demand for a single classification/nomenclature
has increased.

Tony Rubiera has opened a discussion in which I can not simply participate being a persona non grata in the Castellano world ;)
I can do so, however, in the Shakespearean one so I will not hesitate...

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 23 Oct 2010 06:24

rubiera » Ayer 15:16 escribiste:
Aunque estas cubiertas son un poco raras, son el comienzo logico de esta serie. No es casualidad que este tipo de cubierta esta en la tapa del nuevo libro de Pettigiani.

Imagen

Los sellos sobre estas cubiertas de Octubre de 1935 todos son papel ( Pettigiani A; Bardi MI 1; Rubiera 1E1).

En cuanto a las nomenclaturas, creo que con un libro tan completo y bien editado como el de Pettigiani, con unas pocas excepciones que creo con tiempo seran clarificadas, me quedo con la de Pettigiani. Mi nomenclatura siempre ha sido una nomenclatura de trabajo, no una definitiva.

Una de las clarificaciones es lo que yo llamo el papel A', que es identico al A, pero blanco y de 1939-mas sobre este tema despues que describa los sellos papeles A y B(Austriaco), por que el A' los sigue cronologicamente.

Como el segundo papel, el Austriaco, sale en 1937, y solo se usa para los sellos de formato Riquezas, TODOS los Proceres offset P y R I fechados antes de mediados de 1938, y TODOS los Riquezas fechados antes de finales de 1936 fueron impresos sobre este papel. Los Proceres tipografiados no estan en este grupo.

Siempre menciono como disco rayado que el uso de los sellos usados con fecha clara ayuda mucho para comprender esta muy complicada serie.


Comparing the classification codes of Pettigiani, Bardi and Rubiera it is obvious that some are just the same: Pettigiani A; Bardi MI 1; Rubiera 1E1, but for a minor details that Tony already points out to. A more yellowish paper [1E1] and a more whitish paper [1E3a]. The more whitish paper could be coded as A' ...

It is a brave decision that Tony has made to give up the "working edition" his classification always had been and to start using Pettigiani's from now on with an eventually necessary adaption...

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 23 Oct 2010 06:30

For what it is worth, I will stick to Bardi's as I have done a lot lately in this review of Pettigiani's book and I will continue here - among other things - comparing the 3 classifcations and point out where the booby-traps are.

A few postings earlier I had displayed a few no watermark stamps. Tony will have a lot of trouble assigning his NGR stamps and also his NOP's!

to be continued ....
Última edición por Rein el 23 Oct 2010 09:30, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 23 Oct 2010 07:28

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Neither Bardi nor Pettiigiani have a way of denoting the direction of paper on the no watermarks and had to fall back on an extra description in terms of "parallel to the long side" ! Bardi's SF1 and SF2 are not two different types of paper - it is just ONE!

Pettigiani allegedly follows a chronology but he should have realized that this is impossible. Even an approximate one does not make sense as there are 2 different time paths! The time path for the uncoated papers and a separate one for the coated papers!

The chronology for uncoated papers would have been: A-D, E (1941), H (1942) , F (1944) , R (1945), S, i (1948), F, G, N (1953), O, P, Q (1957)

Pettigiani's Tizados are still a mess.

Following the 60 year old division in "rayos ondulados" and "rayos rectos" is an anachronism. For a beginner is it almost impossible to tell the difference between a Granulado Vertical and a Rayos Rectos Difusos or a Rayado Horizontal and a Rayos Rectos Nitidos.

Summing up!

The Bardi Classification is the most advanced not withstanding the implicite use of 4 separate categories. It can be modified using the remarks Pettigiani does make in his book and incorporating the observations Tony has made and has published here!


I need to repeat it once more - it is a great pity that Pettigiani had not had access to this Foro. He could have learned a lot and his book would have been enriched immensely....
Última edición por Rein el 24 Oct 2010 09:39, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 23 Oct 2010 09:26

Tony's claim that there was a change in paper after the using up of the Austriaco [1937-1939] can be seen if you want to!

Imagen
Imagen
Imagen

But these contrasts do not mean that it is an useful aspect for establishing the type of paper of an individual stamp yet.

Imagen
Imagen

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 24 Oct 2010 09:56

Pettigiani' s A paper or Tony's 1E1 is the first to have been used for the PyR I for all we know.
However, in the history of Argentine stamps this type of paper might have been around for some time.

J. Merlo [1966] writes that it was used in 1935 for the first time. A type of paper of English origin of which we know -thanks to José - was imported from Great Britain by Huton of B.A. and was manufactured by Alex Pirie of Wiggins Teape.

Wiggins Teape had been around since 1926 as far as Argentine stamps are concerned and remained on the scene much longer into the 1960-ies. Maybe still under the name of Wiggins Teape or already under the umbrella of Portals.

1E1, 1E3a, 1E3b, 1E3c and 1L1 all have the SAME watermark [i.e. the same dandy-roll] used by Wiggins Teape ( I will not complicate the matter by revealing that some of the coated papers had the same dandy-roll!). The difference lies in the wire of the papermachines - Wiggins Teape had been using several wires of different weave: a linen binding with densities 30/20 [1E1, 1E3a], linen binding with densities 24/22 [1E3c], twill bindings [1E3b, 1L1]....
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 14 Dic 2010 11:37

Rein escribiste:The 10 cent Rivadavia red in type II/III reel-fed typography - Servicio Oficial


................

Types of paper:

MI 1 with Servicio Oficial in typography - 12mm

type II-reel-fed:

Imagen

Imagen

....




As a matter of fact the division of type II into the type II in sensu stricto and type IIa probably makes sense! What is displayed here is type IIa! I haven't seen any type I in sensu stricto of the 10c Rivadavia red with Servicio Ofical !!!!
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor Rein » 24 Feb 2011 09:22

The 1 peso with Antarctic

The statistics in which I displayed the systematical flaws so far last year did NOT present the Rayado Vertical for the brown spot! That was strange!

Imagen

I think I know now why!

We made the mistake of thinking that the Rayado Vertical was issued in 1951 only!

The "brown spot" is NOT present in the Rayado Horizontal of 1951! That is right! The "slash" is but it is the only flaw! I have enough blocks of 4 [2x2] and even bigger parts to show that the "slash" is the only one......

The "brown spot" and a few other systematical flaws are only present in the late Zárate paper with symmetrical paper mesh [Pettigiani refers to the "grené" in 1956!] AND the Rayado Vertical.

My assumption is that the Rayado Vertical had TWO printings - the one in 1951 (called by Pettigiani "Mar casi liso") and the one in 1956 (probably referred to by Pettigiani as "Trama difusa" with no dates mentioned by him for the 1peso)!

In his general description of the Rayado Vertical Pettigiani refers to 3 periods: 1944 ; 1950/1951 and 1956! For the Trama Difusa he refers to several commemoratives of 1955 and 1956!

In fact, there were no commemoratives between 1950 and 1955 with Rayado Vertical (or MI5 as Bardi refers to it)!

MI5 turns up later as a companion of the Kupferschmidt paper with an orthogonal watermark in 1960!!!!! They usually come in pairs! Though not for the P&R I, for the later definitves they are referred to in the catalogues as "mate importado duro" [Wiggins Teape] or "mate importado blando" [Kupferschmidt] ..... It is obvious that Pettigiani did not bother to mention the fourth period of Rayado Vertical - 1960-1965! :)

Summing up:

We have two plates for the 1 peso with Antarctic:

- the 1951 plate with just the "slash" - RV, RH, Tizado Delgado [thin coated], Zárate Rayado
- the 1956 plate with the "brown spot" and some more flaws [yet to be displayed] - RV, Zárate Grené

to be continued ...
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor rubiera » 26 Feb 2011 13:13

I am fascinated by the 2 1/2c Braille. It would be a major find to find it used for the rate it was intended. I have a pair on cover making up the very common 5c.

Here is a philatelic use:

Imagen

tony
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
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Re: The Manual - G.A. Pettigiani - 2010

Notapor rubiera » 05 Sep 2011 19:30

Rein,

Your old manroland link is broken, here is a big press as an example.

http://www.manroland.com/com/en/product ... 00-xxl.htm
sitio Ingles/Español de P y R I
http://www.somestamps.com/arg3551/index.htm
sitio general:
http://www.somestamps.com/
blog de P y R I en Ingles
http://arg3551.blogspot.com/
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