Todo sobre el 10c Rivadavia Rojo P y R I

[Rein]

The combination of the tiny dot underneasth the first "A" of "Argentina" and the horizontal "-" left of the 10c tablet occurs way too often. In 64 copies of the type II 10c red without "overprint" I have 21 copies with these characteristics; in my 25 copies of ministerials and S.O. I have 7!!

To show a few that were shown in the other thread:

http://www.filateliaargentina.com.ar/fo ... 43&p=10876







Some 25% of my red 10c Rivadavia having the combination of both characteristics may lead to the assumption that the "usual" lay-out of reproducing 10 [5x2] stamps had not been followed!

I received a lot of 4-blocks of the 10c chestnut today all with coating [tizado] - the first being used in 1939 the last in the early 1950-ies. Several of them had the above 2 main characteristics in all 4 of the block, some only in 2 some in 3 or just in 1!

So my conclusion is that we are dealing here with 2 types:
- type V the 10c with the dot underneath the A + the sideways scratch
- type VI the 10c without both characteristics

probably both types occuring on the same cylinder in the proportion 25% vs 75%!

Type VII has not got the characteristics of type V and type VI, has got a different shade of chestnut and was used in the second half of the 1940-ies...

to be continued!

[rubiera]

Rein:

I am in the process of absorbing a significant discovery that you have just made: there are additional types of the 10c Rivadavia Red and Brown stamps! This is a most interesting development.

{===Estoy en proceso de asimilar este importante descubrimiento suyo: hay tipos adicionales del Rivadavia en ambos colores!===}

For the typographed stamps with the selvage with a field of vertical lines I find two types. Because we already have a type I and a type II for the red Rivadavia, I am calling it type III. From looking at a small sample, I do not find any multiples with both types, and if this continues to be the case, then each of type II and type III are from separate compositions.

{===Ambos tipos tienen el borde de hoja tipografiado con campo de lineas verticales. Tenemos los tipos I y II, y ahora creo que tenemos el tipo III. No encuentro multiples con mas de un tipo, por lo cual creo que estos tres tipos provienen de tres planchas, una para cada tipo.===}

Type/Tipo II







Type/Tipo III







Comparison of Type II and Type III

{===Comparando los tipos II y III===}

There may be several master die varieties of Type III. All type II seem to share the two dots under the B of BERNARDINO, and all type III seem to share the dot in the lapel .

{===Puede que existan variedades de plancha pertenecientes a los cliches maestros. Por ahora veo que el tipo II siempre tiene dos puntos debajo de la B de BERNARDINO, y el tipo III siempre tiene un punto en el saco de Rivadavia.===}



{===Encuentro ambos tipos cancelados en 1936.===}

I find both types used in 1936.

[rubiera]

Rein,

I have looked at 182 used vertical pairs of the 10c Rivadavia Red and find fewer than a dozen Type IIIs and none with the combination of dots you have shown. While it looks like we have a type III (I do not find any pairs that clearly have both types), I think the specimens you have shown with multiple dots are from a single plate variety (not a master die plate variety).

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He examinado 182 pares verticales usados del Rivadavia rojo y encuentro menos de 12 pares tipo III y ninguno con ambos tipos en el mismo par. Parece que si tenemos un tipo III de composicion separada, creo que el sello mostrado aqui que varios puntos adicionales es una variedad de plancha unica (y no una de las que pertenecen a los cliches maestros).

saludos

tony

[Rein]

Tony,

the types II and III occur together within 1 sheet of both the 10c red and the 10c chestnut! The distribution is NOT by reproducing a block of 10 [5x2] as usual [or at least what I can see at my 5c Moreno in typography!]

The 5c Moreno is according to Tenorio Casal the "estereotipada" so the 10c red and the 10c chestnut must have been the from the "tipograficas" with plates made up from single stypes [?] bound together that could only be used in a flat-bed press! Each single stype could have been reproduced - by galvanizing - keeping the original design but getting tiny additions in the form of dots etc. at each reproductive step!

Let's assume that our well-known [?] type II was the first reproduction of type I [just the addition of the tiny dots left of the name - not intentionally though ] ??? No, this should have given a mix of type I and type II which we do not find! No, according to Tenorio also the size of the type II is smaller...

So the red "tipograficas" had 3 plates: no 1 with type I; no 2 and no 3 with both type II and type III mixed OR no 2 with just type II and no 3 with both type II and type III! The latter is what I assume having found no type III in my ministerial blocks of "type II"...

Both type II and type III have subtypes [like the dot above the "V"] resulting from subsequent reproductive steps.... Subtypes I find in the 10c chestnut as well!!!!! And that is what is contradicting Tenorio! He mentions no 10c chestnut as "tipograficas"!? I think there should be!

Bear in mind that with the tipograficas a plate can be made up of single stypes like the old way of letter-setting used for book-making... Only that we do not have a single letter-character but a single stamp - being either in type II [plus subtypes] or in type III [plus subtypes]!!!

Be asure there is a type II AND a type III - I called them V and VI because III and IV had been assigned to the 10c chestnut in offset-litho. We should re-think the numbering

[Rein]

How come philatelists have done such a lousy job in studying the 10c Rivadavia for 70 years now?? Or had there already been published a good research that unfortunately got buried in the archives of SOFIRA having not been picked up by catalogue-makers who do not understand a bit of stamp production methods....??

Time to re-read Tenorio Casal AND J.R. Merlo. It is a pity the latter did not add pictures to his long story of the typographed stamps.... Just reading it in Spanish is not good enough, I should translate it and probably then understand it

[Rein]

Rein,

I have looked at 182 used vertical pairs of the 10c Rivadavia Red and find fewer than a dozen Type IIIs and none with the combination of dots you have shown. While it looks like we have a type III (I do not find any pairs that clearly have both types), I think the specimens you have shown with multiple dots are from a single plate variety (not a master die plate variety).

saludos

tony

Tony,

NO!

With each plate several printings had been made - according to Tenorio Casal. Forget about a plate [plancha] being a uniform thing! It is a combination of loose types everytime in a specific possibly different setting! That is at least what I am afraid of!

What I call the 2 types [whether V and VI as I did] or II and III as you do originate from most likely the first step(s) in reproducing by galvanizing the original that has not yet had all the extra dots and scratches

[Rein]

The Ministerials I have of the 10c red in blocks of 5x5 are "virginal" at least what I thought it to be!

There is one tiny dot I have in most blocks in the 3rd column and do not repeat within that columns but in one block it occurs twice! I row 1 and in row 3!



With a dot underneath the "O":

[Rein]

The type II has already the ":" the later type III of the offset-litho has:

typography:



offset-litho:

[rubiera]

Rein,

Only recently have philatelists had access to 1200 dpi scanners. For several years I made a large number of 300dpi and 600dpi scans of many of the 10c Rivadavia reds and didn't find any of the features you and I are discussing-also, you must get credit for looking hard!

--------------------------------

Mi opinion sobre por que no se han encontrado estas variedades hasta el dia de hoy es que requieren escaneo a 1200dpi. En todos los escans de 300 y 600 que he examinado nunca pude ver estos detalles. Tambien debemos dar credito a Rein por haber encontrado estos tipos!

saludos

tony

[Rein]

Tony,

the great thing about the 1200dpi scanners is that I can show you and everybody else the details I have been seeing for ages. I.e. the different paper types - symmetrical, a-symmetrical etc. - that I have been describing since the mid-1970-ies by means of drawings, sketches.... There are still a few things that I have seen once in that period but which I can no longer see as my eyes can not keep the pace.... I know what it is and where it is but I am still waiting for technical devices to make a display for others to see it as well....

The little dots of the 10c Rivadavia I can see through my little magnifying glass of 20x!

It appears to me that it is more of a mental factor, of not being used to see patterns, repetitions in the shape of such a meticulously small thing. Philatelists do expect great "flaws" to tell us a story. They do in some way as the printers or printing machines make rough mistakes that slip through. it doesn't tell us more than that they are fallible....

I want to reconstruct the normal practice of stamp production. What were the printing methods used, whenm there were technical developmemts did they reflect in the stamps immediately???

We can gradually disclose the history of the stamps we love if we only keep our eyes open! And do not treat a stamp as a number be it Pt512 or Pt381X which represents an empty place in an album and a fictitious price-tag.....

[Rein]

Tony,

reading Tenorio Casal again we have the following chronology:

10c red

1st tipograficas 01.10.1935 - 1 printing - must be type I
2nd tipograficas 17.12.1935 - 1 printing - type II and III??
1st estereotipada 01.06.1936 - 11 printings - type II and III??
3rd tipograficas xx.09.1938 - 2 printings

10c chestnut

1st offset-litho 16.03.1939 - ?????
1st estereotipada 04.11.1939 - 8 printings
2nd estereotipada 20.06.1943 - 5 printings

The red type II and type III are mostly from 1936 - if they are from before 01.06.1935 they must be tipograficas - meaning a "plate" made up of loose types or dies....

The cancellations of 1936 are mainly of August or later!

One copy of May 1936 - without the dot underneath the "A'!

[Rein]

The cancellation dates should help but also the fact that of the 10c red type II/III "tipograficas" only 4 printings had been made )of which 2 after September 1938!) and of the "estereotipadas" 11 printings.

A "family tree" might establish which characteristic got first!

The "-" in type III was there before the dot underneath the "A" and so was the blot underneath the first "V" ...



Whether they can still be spotted in the 10c chestnut is not conclusive but may give some ideas.

[rubiera]

Cantidades relativas de los tres tipos del 10c Rivadavia Rojo

He seleccionado un grupo de multiples con tres o mas sellos con cancelaciones leves derivados de unos 5,000 sellos de este valor. Esta tabla es la lista de estos bloques. Solo encontre dos del tipo I, lo cual significa que son raros (1 por 20) en relacion a la suma de los otros dos tipos. Me gustaria medir este porciento con mas sellos en el futuro, pero es veridico basado en mi experiencia. Este sello es raro en multiples por haber sido usado mayormente solo, y a veces en par.



El resultado es una relacion de 82.5 porciento / 17.5 porciento del tipo II al tipo III. Todos los bordes de hoja que tengo del tipo III tienen el campo de lineas verticales.

[rubiera]

La variedades de 'dos puntos' en el 10c Rivadavia Rojo tipo III

Los dos puntos se encuentran debajo de las letras RN de BERN en BERNARDINO.



Encuentro dos de esta variedad, encontrada por Rein recientemente. Los dos que encuentro son suficientemente diferentes como para pertenecer a dos posiciones en la plancha. Lo mismo ocurre con el sello inmediato derecho en los dos multiples, por lo cual al menos tenemos dos variedades de la composicion maestra, si es que existe una.

Aqui comparo las dos posiciones en cada multiple. La de 'dos puntos';



y la inmediatamente a la derecha:



Esta es la tira con el primer ejemplo.



Sello Izquierdo



Sello centro, ya ilustrado, el 'dos puntos'

Sello derecho



detalles del sello a la derecha del 'dos puntos'





Este es el bloque con el segundo ejemplo



Sello superior izquierdo,



Los tipos de este bloque (2 es II, 3 es III):

[rubiera]

10c Rivadavia Rojo Tipos II y III en dos bloques

Aqui muestro los tipos de estos bloque (2 es II, 3 es III). No encuentro variedades adicionales que conected a estos dos bloques.