Esquema de referencia San Martin 1923-35

[Rein]

Some earlier examples of the perforation running from left to right!




See the downwards shift of the comb!




Belgian paper with an orthogonal watermark! Direction of paper horizontal!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

The 1925 papers are known with broken gum!

What is not so well known or accepted in Argentina philately is the fact that TWO [2] types of paper have been used at least!

One is the Wiggins Teape, English paper with an orthogonal watermark and the direction of paper horizontally! To tell the truth, ONLY the horizontal direction of paper had been used for these stamps with broken gum! The pattern of the broken gum very much resembles the wire pattern of the paper itself!







The WT paper has the AЯ joint and the rays between the suns with a hill!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The MRC has some extra surprises! The dots are not just squares but can also be 4 separate points! The left stamp only has first dot fallen apart, the right stamp all three!









to be continued ...

[Rein]

The José de San Martin stamps 1923-1935 have had no - or hardly any - variation as to the reading of the watermark letters since 1926!

3 out of the 4 types of paper -

1926 English [Wiggins Teape], parallel watermark
1928 Austrian [Curt Berger], orthogonal watermark
1930 German [Stinnes], orthogonal watermark
1932 English ???? - Congreso del Frio, orthogonal watermark

had it reading AЯ from the back but for the Berger paper that had RA reading from the back mostly!

RA reading from the back is equivalent to filigrana traspuesta in the Argentina philatelic context... This has got nothing to do with how the watermark read in reality! That is on the dandy-roll!!

WT has the felt side printed,hence on the dandy-roll it reads AЯ! That also goes for the 1932 Congreso del Frio paper!

The Curt Berger paper had the wire side printed for most of the stamps! The coil stamps in typography however had the felt side printed and the watermark reads AЯ from the back! The dandy-roll had AЯ as well!

The only exception with the reading of the watermark was the Stinnes paper! The stamps were printed on the wire side! With just a few exceptions! The 10c JSM had been reported before with so-called filigrana traspuesta!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The 5c JSM sin punto with ministerial overprint M.A. with serifs!

Sttinnes paper - orthogonal watermark, direction of paper vertical.... As seen from the back: RA!!!







Perforation strokes running from RIGHT to left!



to be continued ....

[Rein]

He vuelto con este estudio tanto en las licitaciones como en los papeles del San Martin con punto y sin punto, es la Serie 3 de Hickethier, papel holandes de la firma Ault & Wiborg,se la puede distuinguir de las demas por su trama y por su filigrana que es solamente transpuesta, espero que sirva como un aporte y desde ya espero si alguno tiene para aportar a este estudio, eso es lo bueno , que entre varios podamos ir definiendo esta serie.....en la proxima ya entraremos al San Martin sin punto....saludos...
javier

Javier,

how strange to have a USA firm importing Dutch paper when already ALPAMIJ had their representative in Buenos Aires.... It also raises the question whether in an earlier occasion A&W did provide USA paper or paper from a different source and placed their trade mark on the sheets in the shape of Serra Bond or Wheatley Bond!?

saludos, Rein

[Otin]

Rein,
You make me laugh . I was so sure that you´ll will notice Juso`s mistake that this morning I adverted him of your reaction. I told him that in a MP. José

[Rein]

Sintesis de S1,S2,S3 del S. M. con punto (Hickethier)

Con este trabajo finalizo lo referido al San Martin con punto, tanto las licitaciones, como el origen de los papeles, filigranas, y un cuadro con la clasificacion general de las tres series, ademas pongo un par de documentos comprobando que la firma estaunidense Ault & Wiborg traia el papel desde Holanda (Amsterdam), me lo pidio Don Merlo y alli lo tiene....espero que sirva de ayuda juntar todos los topics del San martin con punto y poder estudiarlos....y como siempre si alguen tiene otro dato para sumar, bienvenido sea,.....saludos...
javier








pd: Ya estoy preparando la serie 3bis del San Martin con punto.......

Javier Morillas explained in his first sheet the various tenders leading to the occurance of three different types of paper for the JSM con punto! Interesting is the fact that an American firm Ault&Wiborg - with an address in Argentina - had imported paper form the Netherlands... And that raises the question - I repeat - whether the earlier delivery of unwatermarked paper by A&W did really come from the States!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The third and fourth sheet are an obvious proof of the origin and transport of the Series 3 paper as referenced by Gerardo Hickethier.

What is more questionable is the table:



Just like in the tables for the Zárate papier in the 2008 Clasificacion of the P&R I by D.A. Bardi, you can wonder how the filigrana traspuesta got denoted!

What does m/FT or M/FT mean???? Does it mean that this paper ALWAYS has the watermark transposed i.e. we read RA from the back??? Or - as I had long interpreted it - this paper ALWAYS has the wire side printed!? In the case of the P&R I, Dario Bardi makes it clear in his listings in the Catalogo that /FT only implies that RA may be found as an exception to the general occurrence of AЯ!

And what is FTM or FTyM????

All values in the table have FT!!!!! But ALL S3 [Series 3 of Hickethier] have RA reading from the back!!!They do NOT have AЯ!!!!

So what does the FT in the other cells tell us?????

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Javier:
Con tan categórica documentación lo imposible se volvió posible. ¿Quién lo hubiera dicho? Con esto Rein se va a agarrar de los pelos. Felicitaciones por el hallazgo.
Merlo

José,

I have always realized that you are closer to the fire and might easier get the necessary archival information! I am glad this happened thanks to Javier's investigation!

There is no need for me to grab my hair or bite the sand!

I still will raise critical questions - see above - and as an additional one: how does the winner of the tender know what the watermark should look like??? Do they get samples? And do they get a specification of whether the RA should be at the felt side or not OR whether the line of RA should run lengthwise [parallel] or across [orthogonal]???

Utterly simple questions!

to be continued ....

[Otin]

Rein,
I have a copy od the original sheet drawn by Casa de Moneda for tenders for wmk Sol Grande RA. Suns and RA are drewn in horizontal lines in a vertical format sheet. My experience indicates that the best reproduction of that original design was that of Woggings Teape. Other successful bidders (ALPAMIJ, cURT nERGER, sTINNES, etc) did their own interpretations of the design.
There is a version, perhaps one day it could be confirmed, that states the Austrian put the RA on the dandy roll just like they see it, i.e. reading RA from left to right, that´s why the wire side would read AR from right to left.
Concerning first Dutch paper without wmk perhaps it was not from ALPAMIJ but from another Dutch papermill, because there is a Compañía Holandesa del Pacífico, with headquarters in Santiago, Chile, which is registered in Casa de Moneda aechives as its supplier just before, in the suppliers chronological list, ALPAMIJ.
Later today T´ll refer to your varioloso paper which I know what you mean. I know it quite well.
José

[Rein]

Rein,
I have a copy od the original sheet drawn by Casa de Moneda for tenders for wmk Sol Grande RA. Suns and RA are drewn in horizontal lines in a vertical format sheet. My experience indicates that the best reproduction of that original design was that of Woggings Teape. Other successful bidders (ALPAMIJ, cURT nERGER, sTINNES, etc) did their own interpretations of the design.
There is a version, perhaps one day it could be confirmed, that states the Austrian put the RA on the dandy roll just like they see it, i.e. reading RA from left to right, that´s why the wire side would read AR from right to left.
Concerning first Dutch paper without wmk perhaps it was not from ALPAMIJ but from another Dutch papermill, because there is a Compañía Holandesa del Pacífico, with headquarters in Santiago, Chile, which is registered in Casa de Moneda aechives as its supplier just before, in the suppliers chronological list, ALPAMIJ.
Later today T´ll refer to your varioloso paper which I know what you mean. I know it quite well.
José

José,

yes, I found about the Chile based Dutch firm... But still they could have it form the same Dutch paper mill

I also know you know what I mean by TV but that is not the point! No matter what caused it, it deserves a separate code as it is a long-stay feature for the whole paper production in that period..... It is not just a few lines that could pop up or an occasional sheet wrongly gummed..... Assigning ZA 3/ ZA 4 to a somewhat whiter paper than ZA 1 / ZA 2, you simply cannot deny the existence of the Tizado Varioloso and you may even vary the densitities of the holes as I do from TV 1 [some holes, evenly spread] to TV 3 [fully covered with holes].

saludos, Rein

[Rein]

As the Gz catalogo is moving on and on - which is a great effort and worth every compliment - the serious complaint i have is that within the defintiives series you can see NO chronology and no date indications are given!

This San Martin series is split up in several groups incidated by letters (-, A-R) that may get an offical status in Argentina Philately and the classification will become more difficult to be criticized let alone changed .....

[Rein]

The first three types of paper as defined by Hickethier got also recognized by Gomez. The first Dutch paper is assigned (14), the Belgian paper (15) and the second Dutch paper (16).

I don't think there is much disagreement about this.... Although Juso sees a round and an elliptical version of the first Dutch paper! And so do I!

Was this paper gommed in advance????? Judging by the occurence of both "AЯ" and "RA" [as seen from the back!] haphazardly suggests that the gumming had been applied in Argentina, not taking enough care that the wire side got gummed [resulting in "AЯ" ] in all cases......

[Otin]

Rein: I´ll try to see in Casa de Moneda the text of tender terms, which spicifies whether paper had to be guumed or not.
Concerning dates I think Juso can give exact ones as they appear in tender´s winners roll.
Now, concerning eliptical or round sun in ALPAMIJ papers I think its a question of the dandy roll speed. If itis low it will be elliptical, if it goes at normal velocity the sun is round, Dard Hunter explains this very well. Furthermore, I have some pieces of 4 or more stamps where you can see round and ellipticall ones suns mingled in the same piece. Best regards,
José