Hacia una clasificacion consistente de P y R I

[Rein]

Rein,

I thought the width of the reel was same as the narrower side (11 stamps)?

tony

Tony,

the direction of paper in most small [rather medium] sized stamps is vertical! All the 1E1 have a vertical direction of paper. So if I understood you well, the width of the reel is 20+ x 2.4cm or over 50cm wide!

[rubiera]

Thanks Rein, I did not pay attention to the direction correctly. I guess we do have a rather wide paper roll!

tony

[rubiera]

En resumen Rein y yo hemos estado figurandonos cual es el ancho del rodillo de papel para esta serie. Basado en el ancho de la plancha Proceres (hilera de 20 sellos), parece que el ancho es de aproximadamente 50 cm.

Si alguien sabe sobre esto, por favor nos ayude.

saludos

tony

[zeus25971]

Hola a todos, basado en un post que escribi hace algunos dias sobre la diferencia entre las alturas de los valores de proceres tipografiados. Me decidi a investigar un poquito mas, todos los sellos de esta emision, impresos en tipografia, encontrando en todos los casos variedades de alturas. Como ya dije en el post anterior y aunque no pueda comprobarlo fehacientemente, creo que el tema de los diferentes tamaños esta basado en la maquina con que fue impreso, pudiendo ser tipografica plana o rotativa ( Goebbel).

Les adjunto una imagen con los resultados

vinietasChicasPyRI.jpg

Bueno.....Como veran en el caso del 10c avellana encontre 3 tamaños diferentes, lo que me haria sospechar que en todos los valores pueden darse mas de dos alturas diferentes.....si alguien quiere colaborar revisando los stocks......bienvenido.

Saludos y buen finde
Luis

[Rein]

Luis,

nice job!

How do we establish whether a stamp had been printed from a flat plate, a curved plate on a flat bed or between 2 cylinders [Goebel].

Should we believe Tenorio Casal that the 1c and the 5c in typography had only been printed on the Goebel rotativo!?

The case of the 10c red with "plates" 'tipograficas' or 'estereotipadas' is another problem....

[Rein]

In Samule Klass 1970 "Catalogio de sellos postales de la Argentina" on page 236, he uses the term "huecoooffset"in relation to the 5c Jose de San Martin of 1945.

Googling the term I only come across a few old references - all in Spanish of course - to multicolour printing in the period of 1946-196x... Later references mention that this is the same as dry offset or laser prepared plates for offset. Of course we could not expect laser beams in 1945!!!!

Searching for "dry offset" it turns out to be typography with an intermediate cylinder like in offset.

In other words indirect typography better known by German stamp collectors as "Letterset".

http://bdph.mediagrafix.de/forum/showth ... 058&page=2

Do we have any references in the Argentina literature of this "indirect typography" or hueco-offset???

[Rein]

[rubiera]

In Samule Klass 1970 "Catalogio de sellos postales de la Argentina" on page 236, he uses the term "huecoooffset"in relation to the 5c Jose de San Martin of 1945.

Googling the term I only come across a few old references - all in Spanish of course - to multicolour printing in the period of 1946-196x... Later references mention that this is the same as dry offset or laser prepared plates for offset. Of course we could not expect laser beams in 1945!!!!

Searching for "dry offset" it turns out to be typography with an intermediate cylinder like in offset.

In other words indirect typography better known by German stamp collectors as "Letterset".

http://bdph.mediagrafix.de/forum/showth ... 058&page=2

Do we have any references in the Argentina literature of this "indirect typography" or hueco-offset???

Rein,

Hueco means hole, and it also loosely translate to etching because an incision, or a hole is made on a plate.

--------------------

Le menciono a Rein que hueco se refiere al metodo de confeccion de la plancha.

saludos
tony

[Rein]

Tony,

I was aware of that meaning of hueco but that does not agree with lithography whether offset or not!

So I do think it refers to the indirect typography or Letterset. The consequences are that we should watch out for characteristics of typographed stamps that have gone through the off-set of the offset-cylinder!

[Fredy]

Estimados:
He escrito un articulo sobre este tema en la revista del Centro Filatélico Mediterráneo Nº 3, cuyas copias mandé a Tony.
También es de mi conocimiento que el Sr. Leoncio Mayo de España describe muy bien este método de impresión.
Si les interesa el tema, veo la manera de enviuarles un resumen.
Saludos.
Fredy

[Rein]

Tony, Luis,

Tenorio Casal mentions 3 plates of the 10c Rivadavia red "tipograficas" of which the 1st is type I, the 2 others are type II. There are 3 "tirajes" of the 10c Rivadavia "estereotipadas" of which the first is the red one, the other two are the chestnut.

In my blocks of the 10c type II red ministerials I have not been able to see any characteristics neither of the 1st type nor of the 2nd type let alone of the 3rd type.....

However, I do have found a characteristic of the 2nd type that does occur much too often and I can distinguish even subtypes! The surprise is that they occur in both the 10c red and the 10c chestnut!

to be continued..at:

http://www.filateliaargentina.com.ar/fo ... 862#p10862

[rubiera]

He conectado la pagina central que mantengo sobre esta serie con todas mis contribuciones a los foros.

http://www.somestamps.com/issues/issues ... 935-51.htm

Aqui van selecciones:







saludos

tony

[patagonian]

Excelente trabajo como siempre, Tony. Y gracias por facilitar lo publicado en tu página, seguramente esta muestra incentivará a los interesados a completar la información en ella.

[rubiera]

Gracias, Nestor.

Al principio de mis estudios de estos sellos no me imagine lo increiblemente complicada que es esta serie. Colectivamente creo que hemos avanzado mucho.

saludos

tony

[Rein]

The Clasificacion as published in 2008 together with the Tabla-General gives a splendid overview of what was known about the PyR I at that moment. A lot has been published here that would give an mpulse to a revised edition soon. However, I missed a direct confrontation with what had been published in 2008 and what had been thought about it in this forum!

I may as well start with a few questions...



The no watermark (sin filigrana) section of the Tabla has 4 columns. The first 2 can be replaced by just one when we give a "M" for the parallel to the long (Mayor) side and a "m" for parallel to the short (menor) side of the stamp. This only goes for the "granulado", for the "cerradas" - comun or basico AND satinado canada - nothing had been indicated????? We can be sure that these types of paper have a direction of paper (eje de enrollamiento) as well!

GOOGLE:

El no marca de agua (filigrana pecado) sección de la Tabla con 4 columnas. Los primeros 2 puede ser sustituido por uno cuando se da una "M" para el paralelo a la larga (el alcalde de lado) y una "m" para paralelo a la menor corto () parte de la estampilla. Esto sólo ocurre con el "granulado", para el "cerradas" - comun o Básico y Canadá satinado - nada se había indicado ????? Podemos estar seguros de que estos tipos de papel tienen una dirección de papel (eje de enrollamiento) también!