1922-1970? Multiple Sun + AЯ watermark

[Otin]

Rein,
I don`t see the broken gum but a clear "trama" (wire mesh footprint). I cannot notice the pattern on the front of the stamp.
Here in Argentina to say it+s papel rayado we first look for that pattern imprint on the front. I agree I see a paralell watermarl so ir cannot be austrian paper but frankly I don`t see the broken gum.
José

[Rein]

Rein,
I don`t see the broken gum but a clear "trama" (wire mesh footprint). I cannot notice the pattern on the front of the stamp.
Here in Argentina to say it+s papel rayado we first look for that pattern imprint on the front. I agree I see a paralell watermarl so ir cannot be austrian paper but frankly I don`t see the broken gum.
José

José,

I will make a new scan but then turned 90 degrees. Pay attention to the shape!



This is an orthogonal watermark! And gofrado suiza!

saludos, Rein

[Rein]

The normal plain weave trama does NOT have 4 or more diagonals! The blue angles are under 64 degrees instead of 58!



to be continued ...

[Rein]

The normal plain weave trama does NOT have 4 or more diagonals! The blue angles are under 64 degrees instead of 58!

Turning your head when watching the screen does help!



to be continued ...

[Rein]

Turning the stamp 90 degrees in your scanner reveals other beauties!





to be continued ...

[Otin]

Rein,
The last scan convinced me absolutely! Perhaps it was an urban legend as you say and now I`ll see my "papel rayado" stamps to see if I have the WT&AP paper also rayado. Congratulations for your discovery!!!
José

[Rein]

Some more blue fibers in Dutch papers!

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=5533&start=1

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Presento esta hojas con imagenes del San Martin con punto serie 1 de Hickethier, año 1923, con dos formas de filigrana, una ovalada (tipo mandarina digo yo), y otra redonda,Merlo me explico porque puede aparecer con estas formas de filigrana, espero que Otin pueda exponer esta explicacion en el foro, la intension es que se pueda estudiar e investigar entre todos esta serie, y poder definir los papeles de que origen son, estaria bueno poder escanear y subir mas imagenes de sellos comprendidas en esta serie 1 de 1923, con Merlo hemos hablado que estaria bueno hacer un circulo o taller para poder seguir profundizando esta serie, quiero aclarar que otro miembro de este foro, el Sr Rein tambien tiene varios trabajos sobre este tema y estan bueno consultarlos, pero este trabajo es distinto y personal ya que trate de hacerlo mas explicativo y entendible a travez de la imagen para que se pueda entender, ya estoy trabajando en nuevas hojas con la serie 2 del mismo año, esta bueno presentar tipo "exposicion" el laburo de uno ya sea este o cualquiera en el foro....saludos...




javier

This is the start of a great piece of research done by Javier! He is following the listings of Geraldo Hickethier which I published somewhat earlier here in his thread.

to be continued .....

[Rein]

After a few remarks Javier made a some amends:

Al escribirme Rein por privado que me sugirio poner el eje de enrollamiento con respecto a la direccion de la filigrana "RA", y le agradesco por tal sugerencia que es correcta, esta puesto, por esto vuelvo a poner estas hojas corregidas con este dato que ayuda mucho a clasificar el papel...saludos...
javier

to be continued ....

[Rein]

Bueno ,con algo de trabajo presento la hoja de la serie 2 de Hickethier, 1923, con el agregado mediante de documentos que pertenecen a Copiadores de la Casa de Moneda (1922-1923), que prueban que el papel de esta serie es de origen "BELGA", esto ya lo estuvimos hablando con Don Merlo y le dije que me tomaba el trabajo de exponerlo, el reinado del papel holandes termina el 3 de julio del 22 con Willgo, pero volvera despues con la Casa The Ault & Wiborg, se distuingue bien el papel de la serie 1 con la 2, hay que mirar bien la filigrana, tanto el diametro que es chico comparado con el holandes , como las letras "RA" de la filigrana, en el belga se tocan en la base, mientras que en el holandes estan separadas.
En el tema del origen del papel esta muy resumido, hay mas informacion y lo estoy ordenando ya que me gustaria publicar y compartir esta investigacion, los documentos pertenecen a copiadores de Casa de Moneda,y otros datos a las memorias del Ministerio de Hacienda (Biblioteca del Ministerio de Economia), espero que sirva para poder definir entre todos esta serie como la San Martin con punto y sin punto y la clasificacion especial de sus papeles.....ya estoy trabajando con la serie 3 y al final un cuadro con la clasificacion de las tres series....me voy a dormir....saludos....
javier





pd: espero respuestas....

Another great discovery!

We have to dig into the Belgian Archives for traces of Willgo! So far, collectors were referring to this type of paper by of 'English" origin....

to be continued ....

[Otin]

Rein,
I assume you didn`t read my response to Javier. The responsability for me assuming it could be English paper (not from WT) falls on Tenorio Casal article about papers used in the first aerial set, when he says that set used English paper for the second time after the Rivadavias, in 1932!!!. You know pretty well that WT paper started 1n 1926 in JSM sin punto. Saludos,
José

[Otin]

Rein,
I assume you didn`t read my response to Javier. The responsability for me assuming it could be English paper (not from WT) falls on Tenorio Casal article about papers used in the first aerial set, when he says that set used English paper for the second time after the Rivadavias, in 1932!!!. You know pretty well that WT paper started 1n 1926 in JSM sin punto. Saludos,
José

[Rein]

Rein,
I assume you didn`t read my response to Javier. The responsability for me assuming it could be English paper (not from WT) falls on Tenorio Casal article about papers used in the first aerial set, when he says that set used English paper for the second time after the Rivadavias, in 1932!!!. You know pretty well that WT paper started 1n 1926 in JSM sin punto. Saludos,
José

José,

I hope this settles our discussion about the 4th of May 1932!







The 18c Airmail - not that we can be certain that anyone has ever seen it afterwards! - had been printed on the same paper as the Congreso del Frio in 1932!

And that the "1932" was no "typo" and was not supposed to mean "1923"!

Rein

[Rein]

The first 2 types of paper of G. Hickethier have been dealt with by Javier!



However, I am not so sure the paper is so uniform!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

There is quite some variation in the size of the sun, the height of the letters RA, the waves joining the suns!

If, there is just one dandy-roll [?], then, being an orthogonal watermark, the line of RA runs parallel to the axis of the dandy-roll!

N.B. the line of RA runs parallel to the axis, which means that the felt side of the paper has AЯ [!] and the wire side has RA.. What in Argentina is called filigrana traspuesta [RA reading from the gummed side of the stamp] is the version that is supposed to be the normal one - having the felt side printed! The stamps with the AЯ at the back of the gum have the wire side printed so the paper was transposed.

This is something that can hardly be denied. The grooves are predominantly present at the back of the RA version! Stamps with AЯ reading at the back are grossly to be divided into two groups!

The ones with the grooves that are present predominantly at the front or with hardly any grooves at all!

to be continued ....