Matt and Coated / Mate y Tizado !?

[Rein]

Struggling with the Argentinean definitives [and Commemoratives] there are at least 3 obstacles in the notions I meet in discussing these stamps:

- imported / importado versus national / nacional
- matt / mate versus (clay) coated / tizado
- the Petrovich /Tello Meggia numbering

All this brings about complete madness!

The properties of paper are international, the raw material used and the spare parts for the machines are international, so you are not telling different types of paper apart by calling in "national" or imported...

Paper can be either uncoated or coated. The coating is a separate layer applied afterwards to the ready-made machine paper. Uncoated paper by itself is always matt. However, it can undergo calandering which will make it somewhat shiny but this is not an addition of some kind to the paper but some sort of mechanical rubbing the surface. In Spanish this is "satinado"! Satinado can thus never be tizado as long as we are dealing with uncoated paper.

Coated paper - this used to be clay but there are now several other substances that the coating can consist of - may have a varying degree of brilliance. It can be completely matt, but also somewhat shining upto blazingly glossy... There is just a continuum. The contrapunct matt / mate versus coated / tizado is complete non-sense. In theory coated paper may get rubbed up, calandered as well so be both satinado and tizado.

After the stamps have been printed a separate layer of varnish can be applied in order to make the ink stick.

Luminescent substances can be added to the paper pulp AND/OR to the coating or the varnish. When the luminescence under UV-lamp only reacts as long as the lamp is on, there is fluorescence. The usual colour will be bluish white, although in several countries a fluorescent substance has been applied that will react yellow! Some purist philatelists do not accept the bluish white fluorescence as luminescence but prefer to call it Optical Brightening Agents and claim that it has no importance whatsoever as it was never meant to play a role in postal automation. Anyhow, it is fluorescence and it gives us the opportunity to tell printings apart. The fluorescence can be in the coating and not be in the pulp! Or the other way around or in both!

Phosphorescent substances will still react after the UV-lamp has been switched off. It is usually a yellow reaction. The phosphorescence is usually in the coating but can be in the pulp or the varnish too....

The Petrovich /Tello Meggia numbering does not know any system. Stamps that have different watermarks or none at all get separate numbers although it may not always be possible to determine the watermark. Especially when the stamp is used or cancelled or when the size is very small and when it is a single, loose stamp not a pair or block of four. So the notion of "invisible watermark" is just an excuse for not knowing or not being able to determine...

On the other hand stamps that have had a change of printing method (offset-litho, typography, photogravure, recess] should always get a separate number as it can always be recognized! The printing method does require slight alterations to the design before it can be applied!

The usage of all kinds of letters added to the number make it a complete mess.

Collectors are a hostage of that numbering as it is the only way of referring to them and the short descriptions in the catalogue are highly inadequate.

Stamps have names whether definitives or commemoratives and in combination with an initial year it may be perfectly clear that I am referring to a specific Jose de San Martin issue.... Add the method of printing, the colour, the watermark, etc. and we will not be in need of any number!

[zeus25971]

Struggling with the Argentinean definitives [and Commemoratives] there are at least 3 obstacles in the notions I meet in discussing these stamps:
Desenmarañando los sellos ordinarios argentinos ( y conmemorativos) hay por lo menos 3 obstaculos en las nociones que encuentro en la discusion de estos sellos

- imported / importado versus national / nacional
- matt / mate versus (clay) coated / tizado
- the Petrovich /Tello Meggia numbering

All this brings about complete madness!
Todo esto es una completa locura

The properties of paper are international, the raw material used and the spare parts for the machines are international, so you are not telling different types of paper apart by calling in "national" or imported...
Las propiedades de los papeles son internacionales, la materia prima base y las partes de las maquinas impresoras son internacionales, asi que no deberia haber diferencia en los diferentes papeles mas alla de llamarlos nacional o importados

Paper can be either uncoated or coated. The coating is a separate layer applied afterwards to the ready-made machine paper. Uncoated paper by itself is always matt. However, it can undergo calandering which will make it somewhat shiny but this is not an addition of some kind to the paper but some sort of mechanical rubbing the surface. In Spanish this is "satinado"! Satinado can thus never be tizado as long as we are dealing with uncoated paper.

Los papeles pueden ser recubiertos o no recubiertos. La cobertura es una capa separada aplicada luego de que el papel sale de la maquina que lo fabrica. Los papeles no recubiertos, son siempre de por si mate, puede realizarse un "calandering" lo que lo hace levemente brilloso, pero esto no es ningun agregado al papel sino que es un pulido mecanico de la superficie del mismo. En español esto es un Satinado! Por ende el Satinado nunca puede ser tizado ya que siempre estamos hablando de papeles sin ningun recubrimiento.

Coated paper - this used to be clay but there are now several other substances that the coating can consist of - may have a varying degree of brilliance. It can be completely matt, but also somewhat shining upto blazingly glossy... There is just a continuum. The contrapunct matt / mate versus coated / tizado is complete non-sense. In theory coated paper may get rubbed up, calandered as well so be both satinado and tizado.

Papel recubierto - este papel solia ser Tizado, pero al dia de hoy hay muchas otras sustancias que forman el recubrimiento, y pueden tener una variedad de brillantez, desde completo mate, hasta algo de brillo a completamente brillantes, en una gama infinita de variedadeas. El contrapunto mate vs tizado no tiene ningun sentido, En teoria el papel recubierdto puede ser pulido, y "calendered" al mismo tiempo asi que puede ser ambas cosas, tizado y satinado

After the stamps have been printed a separate layer of varnish can be applied in order to make the ink stick.
Despues que las estampillas son impresas una capa separada de barniz puede ser aplicada para que la tinta quede firme.

Luminescent substances can be added to the paper pulp AND/OR to the coating or the varnish. When the luminescence under UV-lamp only reacts as long as the lamp is on, there is fluorescence. The usual colour will be bluish white, although in several countries a fluorescent substance has been applied that will react yellow! Some purist philatelists do not accept the bluish white fluorescence as luminescence but prefer to call it Optical Brightening Agents and claim that it has no importance whatsoever as it was never meant to play a role in postal automation. Anyhow, it is fluorescence and it gives us the opportunity to tell printings apart. The fluorescence can be in the coating and not be in the pulp! Or the other way around or in both!
las sustancias que le dan luminiscencia al papel pueden ser agregadas a la pulpa de papel ( materia prima) o al recubrimiento o al barniz fijador. Cuando la liminicemcia reacciona bajo la luz UV cuando la misma esta encendida se dice que el papel es Fluorescente. El color usual es blanco azulado, sin embargo en varios paises una la sustancia fluorescente aplicada reacciona con un color Amarillo!!. Algunos filatelistas puristas no aceptan la fluorescencia blanca como luminicencia y prefoeren llamarlo agentes opticos de brillo, deciendo que no tiene ninguna importanca ya que no juegan ningun papel en la automatizacion del proceso postal. De cualquier manera es fluorescencia, y sirve para separar diferentes tipos de impresion en muchos casos. La fluorescencia puede estar en el recubrimiento y no en la pulpa , o al reves o en ambos lugares



Phosphorescent substances will still react after the UV-lamp has been switched off. It is usually a yellow reaction. The phosphorescence is usually in the coating but can be in the pulp or the varnish too....
Las sustancias fosforecentes reaccionan a la luz UV aun despues de que ha sido apagada, normalmente es una reaccion amarilla. La fosforecencia normalmente esta en el recubrimiento aunque a veces puede estar en la pulpa o el barniz.

The Petrovich /Tello Meggia numbering does not know any system. Stamps that have different watermarks or none at all get separate numbers although it may not always be possible to determine the watermark. Especially when the stamp is used or cancelled or when the size is very small and when it is a single, loose stamp not a pair or block of four. So the notion of "invisible watermark" is just an excuse for not knowing or not being able to determine...

La numeracion Petrovich/MT no reconoce ningun sistema. Las estampillas que tienen diferentes filigranas ( o sin filigrana) tiene diferentes numeros sin embargo no siempre es posible determinar la filigrana. Especialmente cuando la estampilla es usada o cuando el tamaño es demasiado chico y es una estampilla sola no un par o un cuadrito. Asi que la nocion de filigrana invisible es solamente una excusa para no saber o no ser capaz de determinarla....

On the other hand stamps that have had a change of printing method (offset-litho, typography, photogravure, recess] should always get a separate number as it can always be recognized! The printing method does require slight alterations to the design before it can be applied!

Por otro lado, las estampillas que han tenido una cambio en el metodo de impresion ( Offset, tipografia, huecograbado, etc ) deberia tener siempre un numero diferente porque siempre pueden ser reconocidas. El metodo de impresion siempre requiere de pequeñas alteraciones al diseño antes de mandar a imprenta

The usage of all kinds of letters added to the number make it a complete mess.
El uso de todo tipo de letras agregadas al numero generan un completo desorden

Collectors are a hostage of that numbering as it is the only way of referring to them and the short descriptions in the catalogue are highly inadequate.
los coleccionistas son prisioneros de esta numeracion dado que es la unica forma de referirse a ellos y las cortas descripcionies en el catalogo son demasiado inadecuadas
Stamps have names whether definitives or commemoratives and in combination with an initial year it may be perfectly clear that I am referring to a specific Jose de San Martin issue.... Add the method of printing, the colour, the watermark, etc. and we will not be in need of any number!
Los sellos tienen nombre ya sean ordinarios o conmemorativos, y en combinacion con el año inicial, queda perfectamente que me estoy refiriendo a una serie especifica de JSM, agregar el metodo de impresion, el color la filigrana , etc,.....Y no habria la necesidad de ningun numero

[Rein]

Luis,

thanks a lot! I am giving you too much to translate at once...

Buenas noches!

[zeus25971]

Ok.....DONE..... next one I will charge you by written line.......

Regards
Luis

[zakur]

You are right, that part of the numbering system in Yvert / Petrovic / MT is chaotic. I struggled to finally understand it, but never saw it as the real problem it is to foreign collectors.

Es verdad, esa parte de la clasificación según Yv / PT / MT es realmente caótica. Me llevó varios años poder finlamente entenderla; nunca vi el gran obstáculo que es y aún más para coleccionistas extranjeros.

[Rein]

You are right, that part of the numbering system in Yvert / Petrovic / MT is chaotic. I struggled to finally understand it, but never saw it as the real problem it is to foreign collectors.

Es verdad, esa parte de la clasificación según Yv / PT / MT es realmente caótica. Me llevó varios años poder finlamente entenderla; nunca vi el gran obstáculo que es y aún más para coleccionistas extranjeros.

Zakur,

it is the combination of the 3 - the chaotic, absurdistic numbering and the over-emphasis on two paper related notions that are - to drive you completely mad - wrongly defined in the first place....!

[Rein]

Let 's give an example.

The 4p50 G. Brown of 1974-1975 is with and without watermark and accordingly has received separate catalogue numbers. But the main difference here is NOT the watermark or the gloss/coating [or its absence] but the overall size and the stamps being printed on either the new [1968] Goebel rotary-press [left] or the old [1938] Mailander sheet-fed press [right].

[Rein]

In 1954 the definitives started off with several values in recess printing.

Of which the 50p has at least 2 different watermarks - a parallel watermark and an orthogonal watermark.




According to the classification used in Argentina we have coated paper (papel tizado) that can be either imported (mate importado) or made in Argentina (mate nacional).

So which stamp has the national paper and which the imported paper?

Isn't it better to talk about parallel watermarks and orthogonal watermarks in the first place as this is a more general approach and hasn't got anything really to do with the origin of the paper manufacturer!

I get the feeling in the mean time that the whole "tizado" versus "satinado" issue is also as false as can be.

All recess-printed stamps by the Casa de Moneda de la Nacion - starting from the 1949 UPU commemoratives up into the 1980-ies have the base paper modified by applying a varnish or arabic gum derivative after a subsidual offset-litho printing but before the recess itself. This substance can be seen clearly in mint copies of those stamps but in used copies the "varnish' has more or less completely been washed off! What is still there has rather irregular surfaces and is often crackled. The real coatings don't have that crackling! Not only the large size commemoratives but also the definitives in recess have been printed on those tempered papers.

Not only that fact that the offset-litho has the varnish makes it highly unlikely the varnish paper was imported like that; in the Casa de Moneda machines that do apply a gumming to the paper reels may as well have been used for varnishing.

Please,. have a good look at your mint copies and compare them to your used one!