Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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jorgec
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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Rein escribió:you should know me long enough to know than I do NOT trust any catalogue ;)
I know :)

Yet, if I understand your intention correctly here, seems you are saying something like we should (at the very least) trust SCOTT. And seems to me you are posting a scan of SCOTT as a way to support your theory that this stamp is line-engraved.

Now, what I am saying, is that if we trust SCOTT, then you are actually wrong. That's why I am asking, which SCOTT catalogue we should trust according to you?

Note, I am not saying you are wrong. I am just not sure, I have some doubts, and don't consider myself expert enough in the subject to have a definitive authoritative answer.
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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jorgec escribió:
Rein escribió:you should know me long enough to know than I do NOT trust any catalogue ;)
I know :)

Yet, if I understand your intention correctly here, seems you are saying something like we should (at the very least) trust SCOTT. And seems to me you are posting a scan of SCOTT as a way to support your theory that this stamp is line-engraved.

Now, what I am saying, is that if we trust SCOTT, then you are actually wrong. That's why I am asking, which SCOTT catalogue we should trust according to you?

Note, I am not saying you are wrong. I am just not sure, I have some doubts, and don't consider myself expert enough in the subject to have a definitive authoritative answer.
Jorge,

before we get semantically off the track... The Scott I refer to is the 1964 I displayed, it is the only Scott I have ever had. In that particular Scott the 12c engraved got mentioned. They have it right! Just as the Michel had of which I displayed a fragment. I have no further experience with Scott myself, I do have with Michel and I think they can be trusted in most cases although occasionally they have made mistakes too :)

As to the 12c Sobrecito blue-green, ALL Argentinean catalogues are WRONG! And have been from the beginning! It is the highest time they have it corrected!
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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Rein escribió:The Scott I refer to is the 1964 I displayed, it is the only Scott I have ever had. In that particular Scott the 12c engraved got mentioned.
Oh, I see... well, it is quite interesting, if you check later editions, now Scott #46 is not engraved anymore, it is typo.!

I realize you claim that this particular stamp is line-engraved and not typo. But that is your own particular opinion. As I said, I am not claiming you are wrong, only that, personally, I have some doubts, and I would like to hear the opinions of other experts.

The fact that Scott had it as engraved, and then they changed it to typo at some point, is quite significant. Of course that I have no insider knowledge about why they really did it. But speculating, the most likely scenario, is that they made a correction. They corrected because either some Scott editor revised the stamp and said something like "hmm, this stamp seems engraved, but it is really not". Again, this is a bit speculative, and it is possible that they had it right, and they changed it to wrong, just not very likely.

Now, if I look at the stamp, I agree that it has a finer and more delicate impression than the other ones of this set, no doubts about it. But I don't see any actual recess at the back of the stamp, do you? The recess at the back and the relief at the front are the fundamental characteristics for a line-engraved stamp. Granted, it is more evident in some stamps that other ones, but I don't see any at all on this particular stamp, and I have a few copies in both used and mint condition.
As to the 12c Sobrecito blue-green, ALL Argentinean catalogues are WRONG! And have been from the beginning!
This is also unlikely, but of course, not impossible.

So once again, you are possibly right, but personally I am not so sure, at least not yet.
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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jorgec escribió:
Rein escribió:The Scott I refer to is the 1964 I displayed, it is the only Scott I have ever had. In that particular Scott the 12c engraved got mentioned.
Oh, I see... well, it is quite interesting, if you check later editions, now Scott #46 is not engraved anymore, it is typo.!

I realize you claim that this particular stamp is line-engraved and not typo. But that is your own particular opinion. As I said, I am not claiming you are wrong, only that, personally, I have some doubts, and I would like to hear the opinions of other experts.

The fact that Scott had it as engraved, and then they changed it to typo at some point, is quite significant. Of course that I have no insider knowledge about why they really did it. But speculating, the most likely scenario, is that they made a correction. They corrected because either some Scott editor revised the stamp and said something like "hmm, this stamp seems engraved, but it is really not". Again, this is a bit speculative, and it is possible that they had it right, and they changed it to wrong, just not very likely.

Now, if I look at the stamp, I agree that it has a finer and more delicate impression than the other ones of this set, no doubts about it. But I don't see any actual recess at the back of the stamp, do you? The recess at the back and the relief at the front are the fundamental characteristics for a line-engraved stamp. Granted, it is more evident in some stamps that other ones, but I don't see any at all on this particular stamp, and I have a few copies in both used and mint condition.
As to the 12c Sobrecito blue-green, ALL Argentinean catalogues are WRONG! And have been from the beginning!
This is also unlikely, but of course, not impossible.

So once again, you are possibly right, but personally I am not so sure, at least not yet.
Jorge,

a recess-printed stamp should have a relief at the front but not necessarily a recess at the back; a typographed stamp might have a relief at the back and a recess at the front but not necesarily!

It is indeed strange that Scott changed it into typography! It is difficult now to check a Michel as they threw out all printing methods in their catalogues around 1970!


Imagen

The Bradbury Wilkinson archives should reveal the truth!

Whatever the printing method may turn out to be then, what remains is that the design is different from the 12c in typography and that alone should speak for a separate listing....
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

Mensaje por Rein »

In order to refresh our memories
This much neglected stamp has been the subject of a long tradition of philatelists NOT using their eyes or magnifying glasses but having an unbroken belief in what has been written in successive catalogues for more than 120 years now from one copy-cat to another:

Imagen


Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Imagen

Can we not see the delicate lines of engraving in the scroll of "Argentina" and the nerves of the leaves ?

Imagen
Imagen


Can we not see the first horizontal line not touching the branch in the upper right corner??? or the delicate parallelogrammes in between the sun-rays??

In the GJ '09 catalogue on the pages 55-57 we find the "Dibujo de una carta" typographed by Bradbury Wilkinson, London; the numbers 63+65 refer to the 12c ultramar that is to have the "sin colita" in 10 out of the 100 stamps of a sheet.

If the number 66 12c azul verdoso would be just a different colour, the use of a different ink whilst still with the same plates, the colita would be there as well. And of course there would NOT be the pointed-out above differences, wouldn't it??

Even if you can not belief that the azul verdoso was printed in recess by Bradbury Wilkinson; and even if you can not find evidence in the Archives, then still the many differences in design between the 12c ultramar and the 12c azul verdoso deserve to be mentioned....
villa56 » 15 Jan 2010 07:38 escribió:
Felicitaciones por tu estudio Rein. Apoyo tu hipótesis de que son distintos grabados. Tomé 2 de tus imágenes y aquí tienes otra prueba para tu estudio.

En el marco del diseño de sobre (donde va el 12), no me refiero a la falta de la línea diagonal, vemos que el marco "pisa" una de las líneas del fondo, en el azul-verdoso, coincide entre medio de 2 líneas.
Nuevamente excelente trabajo. Omar.

Imagen

villa56
Rein » 15 Jan 2010 08:25 escribió: Omar,

thanks, we may go on and on to show the differences probably, but some may still maintain that it is just a matter of a "different shade of blue"

Rein
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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Rein escribió:Whatever the printing method may turn out to be then, what remains is that the design is different from the 12c in typography and that alone should speak for a separate listing....
I agree that it is not just a different shade. And I think that even the local catalogues agree that, at least, it is a different plate.
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

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jorgec escribió:
Rein escribió:Whatever the printing method may turn out to be then, what remains is that the design is different from the 12c in typography and that alone should speak for a separate listing....
I agree that it is not just a different shade. And I think that even the local catalogues agree that, at least, it is a different plate.
Jorge,

which catalogue and where??? Not GJ and not MT!
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

Mensaje por jorgec »

Rein escribió:which catalogue and where??? Not GJ and not MT!
MT is not specialized enough. GJ (and VK and Klass) shows different plate varieties for this stamp, so it is implicitely stating that it is (at least) a different plate.
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

Mensaje por piltriquitron »

jorgec escribió:
Rein escribió:The Scott I refer to is the 1964 I displayed, it is the only Scott I have ever had. In that particular Scott the 12c engraved got mentioned.
Oh, I see... well, it is quite interesting, if you check later editions, now Scott #46 is not engraved anymore, it is typo.!


The fact that Scott had it as engraved, and then they changed it to typo at some point, is quite significant.
As to the 12c Sobrecito blue-green, ALL Argentinean catalogues are WRONG! And have been from the beginning!

Hello everybody, and sorry to bring this up after almost 4 years passed. I have to ask Jorge "which Scott was the one that changed from engraved to typo" because I have the 2011 version and, it is shown as engraved. Either you miss-read it or they changed back to the original.... what a mess!!!!

Anybody knows if the new GJ catalogue coming soon will consider it as a separate listing?
dibujo de una carta scott.jpg
No tienes los permisos requeridos para ver los archivos adjuntos a este mensaje.
A U R E L I O, el de las 5 vocales
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Re: Can't we even trust SCOTT?

Mensaje por Rein »

Aurelio,

I am glad a recent Scott states it is recess and I wonder whether they ever had a different opinion in the mean time :) Maybe Jorge can enlighten us!

saludos, Rein
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