Foro de Filatelia Argentina

Otin escribió:Rein:
I have just erased a mail I sent to Mr. Barrandegui, Celulosa Zárate´s plant in charge of lab, who never bother to tell me a songle word. Rhe aim of my mail was to be received in Zárate to asl for the existende of symmetrical wire paper at the beginning of the issue. In fact, for me that papel started being used in 1966 with the stamp for polio relief, but years later it was discovered that that paper was already in use 1n 1953 together with the assymetrical paper as demostraters stamps cancelled in that year, which are most scarce.
Concerning the grooves on the front side of the stamp for me it still is an enigma, which I expected to be solved by Mr. Barrandegui, but at no avail. Saludos,
José

José,

the stamps with the grooves at the back show "RA" instead of " AЯ"!!!!




This means that the Zárate watermark is different from all others (i.e. most imported papers!) As it shows the mirrored RA at the felt side!!! And the felt side of the stamps above is at the FRONT!

to be continued ..

Timbres escribió:Rein,
In your experience, how common is it to find stamps of this series with the watermark flipped sideways? (asking because I have one) Timbres

Tim,

can you explain what you mean by "flipped sideways"??

The Zárate papers with a SYMMETRICAL paper wire are not that common - the 10c is quicker to be found than the 20c, the 25c is really scarce! Until I mentioned it here in this Foro the 25c was thought to be non-existent!

saludos, Rein

Rein,
I´m in a puzzle. After seeing your scans and descriptions I see that in that paper the felt side shows the footprint of the wire side. Frankly I don´t explain to myself how this happens.
José

The symmetrical paper wire for the Zárate papers is described by C.R. Gomez as follows:

ZG '53

Granulado abierto y visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano a delgado, algo traslúcido y poroso

ZG'54

Granulado cerrado y poco visible, perpendicular a la
filigrana. Mediano, algo traslúcido y poroso.

ZG '57

Granulado perpendicular a la filigrana.
Mediano, opaco y poroso.

But what does the granulado abierto or cerrado mean??? The mesh being open or closed???

When the wire side is at the back the mesh is open? ANd when the felt side is at the back the mesh is closed????

to be continued ....

With ZG '57 we do not even know whether the mesh is closer or open!!!

D. Bardi however sees just two type of Zárate paper with the symmetrical paper wire!

ZA 2 or mate nacional Zárate Granulado Vertical

and

ZA 4 or mate nacional Zárate Blanco Granulado

Not even a 'vertical" is necessary for the ZA 4!

As both ZA 3 (the Zárate Blanco Rayado) and ZA 4 show up in 1957 we can easily assume that ZA 4 equals ZG' 57 of CR Gomez!

to be continued ...

ZG'53 for both the 10c and 20c but also the 25c. It is obvious that Gomez does not know the 25c himself! He simply assumes that the "traspuesta" exists in both normal and upsidedown version!!

Comparing the surface structure of the 25c with that of the 10c and 20c it is clear that the quality of the paper is different! The 25c has a much more closed surface than the 10c and the 20c. And none of the three have anything in common with the 1956 Poliomyelitis stamp that is supposed to be the exemplary ZG '53! Just the fact hat the paper wire is symmetrical! Nothing more!

Do we know of any other stamp that has a similar type of paper around 1953-1954???

to be continued ...

Rein,
Zárate papers, both assymetrical and symetrical, have different production runs. You can find on both different thicknesses (more or less translucent) and with open oi closed grooves as you call them. Same happens with 1945-47 Zárate´s sin filigrana paper. As Hickerthier did, I´ve been collecting that series by papers as from they were appearing but noticing the so many "versions" they showed I decided to neglect such subtleties and confine myself to main features or characteristics.
José

Rein escribió:

Timbres escribió:Rein,
In your experience, how common is it to find stamps of this series with the watermark flipped sideways? (asking because I have one) Timbres

Tim,

can you explain what you mean by "flipped sideways"??

The Zárate papers with a SYMMETRICAL paper wire are not that common - the 10c is quicker to be found than the 20c, the 25c is really scarce! Until I mentioned it here in this Foro the 25c was thought to be non-existent!

saludos, Rein

I will scan tomorrow and hopefully you can see what I mean. Thanks.

Otin escribió:Rein,
Zárate papers, both assymetrical and symetrical, have different production runs. You can find on both different thicknesses (more or less translucent) and with open oi closed grooves as you call them. Same happens with 1945-47 Zárate´s sin filigrana paper. As Hickerthier did, I´ve been collecting that series by papers as from they were appearing but noticing the so many "versions" they showed I decided to neglect such subtleties and confine myself to main features or characteristics.
José

José,

I can imagine that you are reluctant to study the Zárate papers much further..

As we could see in the Wiggins Teape papers [1926-1940] the grooves or furrows [surcos] or disembedded fibers as you like ALWAYS show at the back of the stamps! The same goes for the indents of the rhombos [granulado] - ALWAYS at the back! Hence, we have a strict relationship between the grooves/indents and the wire side of the paper and the dandy-roll!

The WT dandy-roll has AЯ on the cylinder! The Zárate paper has at least a dandy-roll with RA!!!! And maybe a dandy-roll with AЯ as well....

The 10c Evita with symmetrical paper wire clearly show us the RA dandy-roll. With AЯ at the felt side!

The role of the indents is less clear in the Zárate papers! And that starts with the no watermarks in 1945!

Still a lot to be studied

to be continued ...

Rein.
I dom´t deny the possibility of Celulosa having dandy tollsd having RA from left to right or from right to left, but by pracical reasons it is very difficult for me to believe it, beong one of those reasons costs of dandies. And you have good reason to mantain that existence -the grooves on the pretended felt side- but until a technitian can explain me how this happens thus matter will remain, for me, an enigma. Saludos,
Merlo

Otin escribió:Rein.
I dom´t deny the possibility of Celulosa having dandy tollsd having RA from left to right or from right to left, but by pracical reasons it is very difficult for me to believe it, beong one of those reasons costs of dandies. And you have good reason to mantain that existence -the grooves on the pretended felt side- but until a technitian can explain me how this happens thus matter will remain, for me, an enigma. Saludos,
Merlo

José,

no matter whether we have a technical explanation for this or not, the fact remains that we = as philateists - can establish differences and collect them accordingly. To me the occcurence of the grooves at the front or at the back is just as relevant as seeing RA or AЯ at the back of our stamps....

saludos, Rein

Rein:
OK. Innthe case of Eva Perón stamps be sure that if I find both positions or greves at yhe back (the ones I have show groioves on the front) I shall kkep them, no matter of they belong or not to ine dandy roll.
José

Otin escribió:Rein:
OK. Innthe case of Eva Perón stamps be sure that if I find both positions or greves at yhe back (the ones I have show groioves on the front) I shall kkep them, no matter of they belong or not to ine dandy roll.
José

José,

I will show some examples of the JSM 1923-1935 series very soon too! Both the AЯ and the AP type watermarks!

saludos, Rein

Rein,

As a newbie on this forum, I am unsure about the conventions used, so I am going to ask...when you show scans of the obverse of a stamp, you use blue, green and red lines, boxes, crosses, etc., which MUST have a specific meaning. Can you give me the code so I can more fully appreciate your teaching contributions to this forum? Thanks, Timbres