The Rivadavia that vanished into thin air

[Rein]

Rein,
No obstante le puedo dar la dirección de la compañía que me parece producía el papel sensitivo al calor de que le hablé antes. Es LIJNCO - PPC, Postbus 437 9700 AK Goningen.

Responderé in extenso tan pronto me sea posible. Saludos
Merlo

José,

The Lijnco firm in Groningen is well known to me. They print a lot of special stamps - special in the sense that these stamps are reserved for parcels, registered mail, express mail....

When I get in touch with them what would you like to know exactly???

[Rein]

Rein,
De toda la informqción que ha estado enviando, saco en conclusion que Tenorio Casal estuvo doblemente equivocado:
a) el 10c Rivadavia castaño tipografiado fue emitido ANTES de noviembre de 1939; b) erró muy mal cuando dijo que primero
apareció en OFFSET. Si bien sus artículos ayudan en muchos aspectos en otros está completamente equivo9cado. Voy a tratar de sacar una fotocopia de un artículo referente al sello de 5c de la Revolución de 1943 ( Yv.425) donde se hace una tremenda confusión acerca de los tres papeles de ese sello.
.......................
En cuanto a los sellos tipografiados de 5 y 10 centavos. El Moreno, que tiene varias tiradas y no ha sido impreso en hojas
tengo pruebas ( las planchas completas o fragmentos) de que ha existido un grupo raíz (base Block) de 5 x 10 que ocupa la mitad izquierda de la plancha y se repite en la parte derecha. Esto se comprueba mirando el borde inferior de laq hoja cuando no tiene el sombreado completo. Se verá que el contorno de las irregularidades de la mitad izquierda se repiten en la derecha-
Una de las planchs del 10c Rivadvia rojo, tipo I, obviamente impresa en hojas, o sea en máquina plana´, muestra una
clara composición de 20 grupos de 5x2 sellos. Y en cuanto al 10c castaño de Rivadavia aquí ya conocíamos la existencia de los
dos tamaños.
Responderé in extenso tan pronto me sea posible. Saludos
Merlo

José,

Did you know about the 5c Moreno with empty forehead??? It is amazing to find out that it has NOT got the status it SHOULD have. On the same level as the 10c red! Type I of the 5c typography with empty forehead - type II with filled-in forehead!!!

The 5c with empty forehead has on the same sheet - at least 2 different base blocks of 5x2! I will display them all in due course here.
What makes you think there was a base block of 50??

Also the 10c red sheet-fed is most likely to have a base block of 5x2, but as to the reel-fed 10c red I am not so sure.

I have the impression that the reel-fed 5c type II may still have that base block for the Mate Lustroso printing but that the coated paper versions of both the 5c Moreno and the 10c Rivadavia have different settings of "types". Loose types that get multiplied in a more or less hierarchical way receiving tiny common features after which the types get pressed into papier maché haphazardly.

Of the 5c I know now 2 main types [type II and type III] and several subtypes of them, that can be found in at random positions in the sheets. Also of the 10c I have 2 main types [type II and type III] and several subtypes of them.

I probably should introduce or rather split up the 10c type II into type II-sheet-fed and type II-reel-fed as I have no way of distinguishing them other than by the size of the stamp. Or by the gauge of the perforation which as I have explained does NOT make sense - the difference is too small for a normal perforation gauge....

The tiny details that form the distinction between the various types are so "powerful" that they survive the havoc the Goebel is making of the "plates" while printing. The printing quality is a real disaster and had gotten worse after the introduction of coated paper. This disaster continued from 1949 till 1967!!! Incredible!!! Why on earth had the Casa de Moneda given up the use of matt, uncoated paper????

BTW, the tiny details - minute little dots - were considered important enough for philatelists in 1938 to have a type I and a type II for the 10c red!?!??!? Why had nobody bothered to continue????

[Rein]

The 10c Rivadavia in red, type I, printed sheet-fed:








The perforation device moved horizontally, hence an eventual, extra thick tooth at the right:



some extras printed outside the design itself; ink at the left flowing leftwards!







Extra thick tooth at the right:



rc2113

[Rein]

Unidentified Flying Objects!

[Rein]

Le he dedicado un poco de tiempo a este sello, que es de los mas dificiles de clasificar de la serie. Aqui muestro los tizados de las tiradas de 1939 a 1944 (los CL1A y CL1B). Encuentro dos tiradas, las cuales siguen a los de 5c: en 1939 se emite el CL1A, en castaño un poco rojizo, y para 1941 se emite el CL1B, en castaño oscuro casi castaño negro.

No coincido con Tenorio al yo no encontrar este sello en offset durante el periodo que Tenorio Menciona: "poniendose en circulacion el 16 de Marzo de 1939 (Creo que llegaria a ser pieza importante por su efimera circulacion)." Tenorio menciona que el 4 de Noviembre de 1939 se emite el tipografiado. Yo encuentro lo siguente:

El CL1A tengo cancelado en Mayo de 1939.







Lo encuentro con sobrecarga "Servicio Oficial"



Este sello es un poco raro, pero solo dentro del contexto de las otras impresiones que son ultra comunes. Lo encuentro en tan solo una cubierta, fechada Agosto 20 de 1939:




La diferencia entre los dos papeles es minima. El sol del CL1A es un poco mas grande que el del CL1B; el CL1A es mas liso y el CL1B es fino y con la filigrana causando efecto de relieve sobre el papel.

Los CL1B son un poco mas oscuros y con impresiones menos y menos nitidas. Para el 1941 ya la plancha muestra suficiente desgaste como para causar que el sello tengo como una malla de espacios sin tinta:








Lo encuentro con sobrecarga "Servicio Oficial"





Los encuentro en cubierta, pero no los considero comunes en este formato:







me gustaria saber de mas cubiertas, y tambien de fechas de uso de estos dos sellos,

saludos

From this posting it seems obvious to me that the stamps Tony has are COATED - he recognizes 2 types of coating and even some differences in the size of the Sun! The stamps dated in 1939 are on CL1A, the ones of 1941 and later on CL1B!

The first 1939 stamp is to return in a later posting to happen to be a possible "mate lustroso"!

The mate lustroso of the 5c Moreno has nothing that could confuse it with a coated paper stamp! It might be considered slightly calandered [polished up by friction also called "satinado"].

[Rein]

Los tipografiados 5c Moreno y 10c Castaño impresos en 1939

Aun no he podido clasificar estos sellos correctamente. Tienen la filigrana del Holandes (1E4) pero fueron usados en 1939.

Los sellos son tipogafiados. El papel es muy fino y tiene una capa semi-brillante sobre la parte el lado impreso. Puede casi ser un tizado, pero no lo es.

Aqui esta el 5c Moreno, mucho mas comun que el 10c Castaño.





Aqui esta uno usado en 1939.




Tira vertical de dos sellos.




Tira vertical de tres sellos.

The 5c Moreno on "mate lustroso" may be a bit similar to the "Holandés" of 1940, but the structure - the flocculosity" of the Dutchman makes it a completely different type of paper! Also both types of paper are from 1940! What makes it worth while to compare them closely! A mate lustroso already in early 1939 does NOT make sense .....

[Rein]

Rubiera:

Con respecto a su post del 9 del actual persisto en mi afirmación de que el 10c Rivadavia tipografiado que Ud. ilustra (sello suelto, tira de 2 y de 3) no es tizado sino el "mate lustroso" que Mello Teggia en su catálogo asigna al 5c Moreno tipografiado. Lo digo por la trama tan abierta que se ve de atrás, que para mí es idéntica al del sello precedente. Por eso le envié un mail la semana pasada preguntándole si la pareja de Rivadavis del sobre de junio de 1939 que Ud. ilustra en su post del 17 de mayo del 2009 respecto a este sello, para Ud. es de papel tizado o el papel delgado y brilloso que no es tizado. ¿lo recibió? porque no aparece en los enviados en el Foro.

Para mí su respuesta tiene enorme importancia porque así confirmaría que el sobre 1er día de circulación que posee Moscatelli tiene ese tipo de sello.

Desde ya agradecido por una respuesta.

Merlo

Me olvidé mencionar que el catálogo de Mello Teggia omite el 5c Moreno tipografiado en papel inglés, mi granulado horizontal o grené.

Por otra parte, me parece que sus sellos que menciono (los de 10c) de adelante no tienen la blancura propia del papel tizado ¿o aprecio mal?. It's all by now!

Merlo

According to Mello Teggia all 5c Moreno in typography on uncoated papers are "mate lustroso"! But Mello Teggia had NOT realized that the 5c on English paper had ALSO been with a completely different design or "type"!!! Or worse it seems that all of the Argentina philatelists had overlooked the 5c with "empty forehead" or thought it to be some coincidentally missing dots!

From the scans available here it is not right to conclude that the paper meshes are the same of the 5c and the 10c! It needs amplification and a thorough measuring up of all parameters:

density of the horizontal and vertical threads; vertical distance - heart-to-heart - between 2 of the same lines of AЯ [circa 30mm]; the heart-to-heart distance between 2 suns [circa 17.5mm]; the diameter of the sun....

The traditional measuring between the outlines of the suns is NOT accurate!

rc2207

[Rein]

Tira vertical de tres sellos.

Assuming the stamps - reel-fed on the Goebel typography rotary - have a height of 30.0mm, and assuming that the scanning nor the computer screen will cause any deformation, we may come to this:

- vertical distance between 5 lines -> 60.1mm or circa 30mm between 2 the same lines of AЯ

- horizontal distance between the hearts of the sun: 17.6, 17.3 and 17.0mm of the suns from top to bottom; the lower suns are visibly closer a bit....

- diameters of the suns - circa 10.4mm

As to the distances - this is what has been established for most of the Argentinean multiple Sun watermarks:

- horizontally 35mm between the 1st and the 3rd sun [except the Austriaco that has 32mm!]
- vertically 30mm between the 1st and 3rd line [except Rayos Rectos nitidos AND difusos 35mm]

The stamps are of type II - the first one at the top is type IIa [dot above the "N"] - of the "loose" types....

[Rein]

Aqui esta el 5c Moreno, mucho mas comun que el 10c Castaño.

Assuming that the width of the stamps is 24.0mm, the horizontal distances heart-to-heart between the 1st and the 5th Sun is 67.7mm -> 17.0mm [rather 17.4mm for the 10c]; the vertical distance 15.1mm [the stamp is not high enough to measure the distance between 2 of the same lines of AЯ] and a diameter circa 10.2mm.

Should there be a difference as to the watermark itself, we should find it in the horizontal distances!

[Rein]

[quote="" zeus25971"]
Estimada clelia: No esta mal la idea, sin embargo, la forma en la que se hace la filigrana es pasar la pasta de papel por un rodillo con la marca a imprimirse en relieve (balancin) que ejerce presion sobre la misma produciendo un adelgazamiento del papel y por ende dejando la marca de agua. Es por esto que el "patron" que se genera sobre la plancha, no necesariamente es del tamaño de la misma sino que depende del radio y longitud del balancin .Por otra parte hay que tener en cuenta que los tamaños de los bordes de hoja pueden variar. Te adjunto un par de imagenes de la revista de SOFIRA, en donde podes ver una foto del Presidente (Ing Ramon Merlo ) junto a un bailarin, y otra con el detalle del mismo





Una explicación muchisimo mas detallada del proceso, la podes encontrar en la revista editada por SOFIRA de Marzo del 2007 ( podes comprar ejemplares viejos en la sede de sofira, tucuman 672 1ro 2 o podes consultar por email a sofira@sofira.org.ar )
[/quote]

Manual work - Trabajo a mano:

José,

it would be interesting to know the circumference of the dandy-roll!

The circumference of the dandy-roll is decisive for the distance between the lines of AЯ. We can not have 2 lines coming too close, so the manufacturers knowing the circumference have to calculate the mean distance between the lines in order to spread the suns evenly.... With the distances of the Rayos rectos significantly different the circumference of the dandy-roll should have been different from all the others. If both papers originate from Italy, we may assume even just one dandy-roll????


rc2210

[rubiera]

Early use of the 10cBRCL1A on cover

This cover bears a 10cBRCL1A. Although this stamp is not extremely rare (as is the case for the elusive 2pCL1B of 1943) it is rare enough used when compared to the other printings of the 10cBR, most being extremely common, and is extremely rare on cover in 1939. This cover was mailed to Germany.



Here is the 10cBRCL1A



...and here is a detail of the date, March 22, 1939. According to Merlo, there is a first day cover in Moscatelli's collection dated Mar 16, 1939.

[Rein]

Early use of the 10cBRCL1A on cover

This cover bears a 10cBRCL1A. Although this stamp is not extremely rare (as is the case for the elusive 2pCL1B of 1943) it is rare enough used when compared to the other printings of the 10cBR, most being extremely common, and is extremely rare on cover in 1939. This cover was mailed to Germany.



Here is the 10cBRCL1A



...and here is a detail of the date, March 22, 1939. According to Merlo, there is a first day cover in Moscatelli's collection dated Mar 16, 1939.

Tony,

at least we agree that we have a coated paper here! And not a "mate lustroso"!

[Rein]

Tony:

He estado viendo las variedades del Rivadavia tipo I y la verdad que son muy interesantes. Como dato le puedo aportar el siguiente:

Las planchas impresoras fueron confeccionadas de la siguiente manera: Se hizo un 'grupo raíz' de 10 sellos, 5 x 2 , que se repitió verticalmente de modo que la mitad de la plancha verticalmente contiene 50 sellos. Con esta misma matriz fundida ya en estereotipo se hizo una segunda para completar los 100 sellos, o sea que la plancha impresora está constituida con dos mitades idénnticas ya que la segunda mitad copia los defectos de la primera. Hay que tener en cuenta que el grupo raíz está
constituido por 10 tipos diferentes que una vez formado es copiado en bajorrelieve en un cartón especial sobre el cual se vuelca el metal fundido que una vez solidificado dará otra copia en relieve. Este sistema de mitades se usó tanto para la impresión plana tanto como para la rotativa.

Por otra parte le ruego darme su dirección postal para hacerle el envío de las publicaciones. Gracias, Jo

José,

what you describe for the typographed 10c may be OK for some printings. The 10c red type I has a root block of 5x2, and maybe so the 10c red type II for the sheet-fed plates. The reel-fed plate [cylinder] has been made up of 2 discrete types [each having its subtypes] that occur at random in the sheet. This goes for both the 10c red and the 10c chestnut-brown in reel-fed! See my postings elsewhere of the 10c types II and III. For the 10c type IV [1947!!] they may have returned to the 5x2 root block system! And kept to it until 1969.

The 5c Moreno in typography has always been reel-fed. Type I [empty forehead] has a root block of 5x2; and so probably the 5c type II on MI 1 [English paper]; the later printings have type II and type III at random in the sheet - like the 10c Rivadavia!

I suspect the Casa de Moneda having come back to an old process of making "settings" of loose/single "types" that got reproduced starting from 2 different base types! Read my postings and I will be glad to hear your comments!

[Rein]

José and Tony,

I just received the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown in reel-fed with a few blocks to show the distribution of the types II-rf and III-rf:

block 1 [4x2]:


type II-rf on position 8
type II-rf-a on position 5 and 7 - the dot on the line above the first "N" of "Bernardino"
type III-rf on position 1 3, 4
type III-rf-c on position 2 - the blot under the first "V" of "Rivadavia"
type III-rf-d on position 5 - the dot under the first "V" of "Rivadavia"






compare:




block 2 [4x2]:

type II-rf on position 2, 4, and 8
type II-rf-a on position 3, 5 and 7 - the dot on the line above the first "N" of "Bernardino"
type III-rf on position 1
type III-rf-d on position 5 - the dot under the first "V" of "Rivadavia"




rc2361

[Rein]

Type III-rf has 2 tiny characteristics that type II-rf nor II-sf have - a dot next to the top of the "A" of "Republica" and the dot between lines under the first "A" ofg "Argentina":