The Rivadavia that vanished into thin air

[Rein]

The 10c Rivadavia has been terribly neglected in the Argentinean catalogues. Not only the offset-litho version but also the typography version. The base stamps are so common that nobody had really bothered too much ....

Let us start with the 10c in typography!

The red coloured version is supposed to have 3 versions if we are to believe the catalogues - and by now you should know that I do not believe things that easily!

Relying a lot on the article made by Leopoldo Tenorio Casal (Nr 40 Revista del Centro Filatélico de la Plata - 1947) we should make a distinction between the sheet-fed and the reel-fed versions!

10c red:

01.10.1935 sheet-fed, 1st plate [only 1 printing]; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.5mm, the design 21.0x27.0mm. Known as tipo I with comb perforation 13.333:13.147 [13 1/2:13 in M.T.].
17.12.1935 sheet-fed, 2nd plate [2 printings]; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.5mm, the design 20.6x26.7mm. Known as tipo II with comb perforation 13.333:13.147 [13 1/2:13 in M.T.]
01.06.1936 reel-fed, 11 printings; the stamp measuring 24.0x30.0mm, the design 20.0x26.5mm. Known as tipo II with comb perforation 13.333:13.333 [13 1/2 in M.T.]
x.09.1938 sheet-fed, 3rd plate [2 printings]; no further details but for the fact that according to Tenorio Casal the word "Bernardino" is back to the length of the 1st plate....

The latter fact should mean that we have at least 4 different 10c red! At least, as we do NOT know how different are the subsequent printings and we know already that for the 5c Moreno the 19.03.1937 reel-fed printings (13 in total) had 2 major design types!!!

Although the catalogues mention the differences in perforation, none does mention the differences in sizes [both design and stamp height! ]

to be continued .....

[Rein]

The 10c Rivadavia red in typography has its first type printed sheet-fed in sheets of 20x10. The well-known 2nd type has to be split up in at least 3 versions:

- the sheet-fed version of 17.12.1935
- the reel-fed version of 01.06.1936
- the sheet-fed version of september 1938

The latter may turn out to be quite problematic as no-one has paid any attention to it and because of the fact that it had been soon replaced by the 10c chestnut!

[Rein]

The 10c red printed sheet-fed (17.12.1935 and later) has as far as could be found no subtypes. For the time being we can call it : type II-sheet-fed;

Whereas the reel-fed 10c red has 2 main types which i had earlier denoted by type II and type III,

type II:



type III:




Type II reel-fed has a subtype:





The dot above the "N" of "Bernardino" is the prime characteristic!

Other subcharacteristics - the dot in the "R":

[Rein]

The 10c chestnut in typography has only 1 listing in the catalogues! Printed on coated paper!

Thanks to Dario Bardi we know now that we have 5 types of coated paper been used for this 10c chestnut! TI1, TI2, TI3, TI4 and TI5 ... Although we may have an enormous difficulty in distinguishing them all, this is not yet the subject of my posting





What is fascinating about this table is that of 20.03.1939 due to the UPU rules about colour and the apparent change of the international rates for printed matter, post cards and letters new stamps [4c G. Brown, 12c B. Mitre, 20c Guemes] that were to have green, red and azul were introduced and the old ones with these colours devalidated already by 31.07.1939 [3c JSM green, 10c B. Rivadavia red, 15c Torito azul] and so were the ones that had changed colour [4c G. Brown grey, 12c B. Mitre brown, 20c Guemes ultramarin]. New colours for the 3c JSM grey, 10c B. Rivadavia brown and 15c Torito ultramar.

The 10c red had to move and was devalidated by 31.07.1939! The 10c chestnut MUST have been there before that!

Leopoldo Tenori Casal is confusing us a lot!



to be continued ....

[Rein]

Tenorio Casal describes 2 [or 3?] different orders for the 10c chestnut in typography:

16.03.1939 offset-litho [???], 8 printings
04.11.1939 reel-fed; coated paper of the 1st production
20.06.1943 reel-fed; 5 printings; coated paper of the 3rd production

Can there have been an offset-litho printed stamp - issued in March 1939 and replaced by a typography version in November 1939 that left completely un-noticed???

The coated paper of the 1st production had already been used for the 5c Moreno [05.04.1939 according to Tenorio Casal] so why wait till November??



Recently we had a few philatelists reporting the use of the 10c chestnut in typography a bit earlier!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

Tenorio menciona que la primera impresion de este sello, en offset y rara, fue emitida Marzo 16, 1939; y que la primera tirada tipografiada fue emitida Noviembre 4, 1938. Esta cubierta, de Junio de 1939, tiene dos tipografiados. Yo he mostrado este sello cancelado antes de la fecha mencionada por Tenorio antes.



La cubierta tiene un cuño de envio de la compañia remitente.



Aqui muestro detalle de los sellos

The date is obvious an earlier one than what Tenorio Casal assumes. The type of paper seems to be coated!

[Rein]

Sr. Tony:
Con respecto al sello al que hace referencia, hay una nota muy importante sobre el mismo:
Extraída de la REVISTA FILATELIA ARGENTINA DE SOFIRA AÑO CXIII nº 224 MARZO 2008, la nota es de nuestro nuevo integrante del Foro el Sr. José R. Merlo.
Le transcribó algunos párrafos importantes, me permito aconsejarle conseguir la revista en SOFIRA.
Saludos
Yacaré
PD: Estoy usando el scanner de un ciber, perdón por los errores.




El sello que no existía

Although it should have been obvious that Leopoldo Tenorio Casal had made mistake, a reasonable assumption made by José Merlo had been that as the coated paper only arrived in November, another type of paper could have been used before November!

But as I had already suggested WHY NOT USING the coated paper that had already been in use for the 5c Moreno????

And why should a type of paper that got used for the 5c Moreno SINCE 24.03.1940 been used ONE YEAR EARLIER????

[Rein]

Este sobre lo adquirí hace unos día más que nada por el Rivadavia 10c. que sería, según los estudios de los expertos en Py R ,I un MATE LUSTROSO TIPOGRAFIADO por la fecha del matasellos 23 de Junio de 1939.
........................
A pedido de amigo Rein, (por MP), muestro imagen con mayor resolución del sello de referencia y agrego uno que tengo suelto extraído de una carta de Junio de 1939 .
Saludos de FELICES PASCUAS a todos los amigos del Foro.
.......................



Saludos
Yacaré

The second stamp at the right has got the characteristic dot above the "N" I described earlier! The subtype of the reel-fed type II ....

Just as with the stamps of Tony Rubiera I would say they are printed on coated paper! The watermark + paper = Bardi's TI1 or Tizado importado Granulado Vertical!

[Rein]

And last but not least my own findings!

type III in July:





Clockwise starting from the top left: type IIb, type III, type IIb, type III in October 1939:




All my above stamps are coated, have a symmetrical paper mesh, a vertical direction of paper and an orthogonal watermark, the line of AЯ runs parallel to the short side of the stamp. In Dario Bardi's terms: TIZ1 "m" with a normal position of the watermark....,

[Rein]

As the article by Leopoldo Tenorio Casal was written in 1947 it is hardly unlikely he had overlooked much in the period 1943-1947!

1c:



5c:



10c:



The above mentioned coated papers of the 3rd production are ALL the so-called "norteamericano' or Bardi's TI2 (tizado importado grueso norteamericano) characterized by their coarse paper mesh - 30 horizontal / 16 vertical!

The listings of the 1c TI5 and the 5c TI5 can be dismissed and considered a misidentification! Only the 10c Rivadavia chestnut in typography has the TI3, TI4 or TI5 but NOT of the above mentioned types I-III ....

to be continued ....

[rubiera]

Rein,

The rare 10c Brown is 1E4, scan in the postal history section, 1930s letters.

tony

viewtopic.php?f=133&t=3449

[Rein]

Este sello esta impreso sobre el papel 1E4, el llamado 'Holandes' y asi tambien esta impreso el 5c tipografiado de libritos. Y esta rareza fue causada por la gran variedad de papeles. Los papeles 1E2 (Austriaco de 1937/38) y 1E4 (Holandes de 1939/40) tienen tiradas limitadas. El 1E2 fue usado exclusivamente para los valores de formato grande. El 1E4 si fue usado durante la primera tirada de cambios de colores de 1939 para los menores.

Tony,

all these 5c Moreno stamps are on UNcoated paper - the so-called mate lustroso - but the stamps I have (and you and Yacaré probably just as well) are all COATED!

[Rein]

When Leopoldo Tenorio Casal wrote his famous article on the typography definitives he probably had not been aware of a new printing of the 10c Rivadavia in chestnut. A new cylinder had been prepared with a new design.



As I wrote in the previous postings, the size of the 10c had changed constantly. This time the width has come down to 19.5 [the first 10c red was 21.0mm wide!]. A quick measuring of the word "Bernardino" will result in 5.8 [originally 6.2mm!] will help.



The more characteristic feaure is the "L" shaped appendix:

[Rein]

The listings of the 1c TI5 and the 5c TI5 can be dismissed and considered a misidentification! Only the 10c Rivadavia chestnut in typography has the TI3, TI4 or TI5 but NOT of the above mentioned types I-III ....

Type IV - the one with the "L" shaped appendix occurs with several types of coated paper - all of the TI1-TI5 but for TI1! Keeping these types of paper apart is problematic!

[Rein]

The 10c Rivadavia chestnut in offset-litho is an even more neglected stamp!

The Argentinean sources only recognize 2 types depending on the shape of the left-hand collar as seen on the stamp [i.e. for Rivadavia himself his right hand collar!]

TYPE A:





TYPE B:




It had turned out that the emphasis on just the collar was a mistake![