P&R I Classification

[rubiera]

Rein,

I don't think so. I just looked at 200 or so I am loading up to my books and there is no 1E4. The best way to clear this issue up is to have handy a good selection of the 25c or 50c 1E4. This way works best. The 2D can be confused with the 1E4 but the RA in the 1E4 is gigantic when compared with the 2D RA and the 1E4 is white and fluffy and medium thick where the 2D is grayish flat and slightly thinner.

I think this is a red herring, all 1E4 are from 1940 anyways. The dates of use are key here.

tony

[Rein]

Rein,

I don't think so. I just looked at 200 or so I am loading up to my books and there is no 1E4. The best way to clear this issue up is to have handy a good selection of the 25c or 50c 1E4. This way works best. The 2D can be confused with the 1E4 but the RA in the 1E4 is gigantic when compared with the 2D RA and the 1E4 is white and fluffy and medium thick where the 2D is grayish flat and slightly thinner.

I think this is a red herring, all 1E4 are from 1940 anyways. The dates of use are key here.

tony

Tony,

I agree that the differences between MI 3, MI 7 and RR 1 are hardly measurable UNLESS you have a stamp with 3 rows of Suns or a long pair or a block of 2x2. In that case you can measure the distance between 2 rows: if 35mm then RR 1, if 30mm then either MI 3 or MI 7!

The 2 copies I displayed have a fluffy surface at the back!

[Rein]

Tony,

this stamp has 3 ROWS of Suns! Vertical distance 30.5mm, whereas RR 1 [and 2] should have 35mm!!!!



This is a DUTCHMAN!

[Rein]

Dutch paper has been used for the offset-litho 5c Moreno and the offset-litho 10c Rivadavia [type A] with Servicio Oficial !

Theoretically the first type of paper of the 10c Rivadavia in offset-litho - 1942 - but in fact utmost scarce, not even MINT copies are known

Type A: Symmetrical paper mesh, orthogonal watermark, "papel Holandés"

rc2343

[Rein]

the Servicio Oficial version is more common

S.O. in offset-litho:





Look at the Servicio Oficial stamps!

August 8th, 1940 !!!!!





RC2344

[Rein]

A most important help in distinguishing imported papers and national papers is the craquelé of the gum:

- cross-diagonal cracks -> imported
- predominantly horizontal or vertical cracks
or none at all -> national Zárate


rc2364

[rubiera]

I will take a second look. The 20cLC you show looks convincing as a 1E4. This is not a common paper for this stamp....otherwise I would have noticed many in the ones I have.

tony

[Rein]

I will take a second look. The 20cLC you show looks convincing as a 1E4. This is not a common paper for this stamp....otherwise I would have noticed many in the ones I have.

tony

Tony,

the 1E4 started in late 1939 as can be seen by the 1939 Housing Congress with 3 different types of paper - Inglés, Holandés AND Austriaco!

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=3794

[rubiera]

Thanks for this discovery, Rein. Here are the images.

The 20cLC1E4

At first I did not believe it, but here it is. It was 'under my nose' all along. The top row are 2D and the bottom row are 1E4.



2D stamps in more detail





1E4 stamps in more detail

[Rein]

Tony,

I know you hate to measure distances in these watermarks but the vertical distance between 2 alternate rows of suns is either 30mm - 1E4 or 35mm - 2D!

Another aspect which I hardly dare to mention is that I think we have TWO 1E4's at hand! The 1E4 for the lower values and the 1E4 for the larger sized [20c Toro grande, 25c, etc] that might coincide with the 1E4 Tenorio Casal claims for the 25c, 30c, 50c, 1p and 2p!



rc2370

[rubiera]

Rein,

This is a wonderful tidbit. As usual it takes me time to get to it but it is worth comparing the small format and large format 1E4s.

tony

[rubiera]

I read what Tenorio Casal says and it confuses me.

Does he mean that there are two 1E4s for the 25c,30c,50c,1p,2p?

What I do find is that the 2D was used on the 1p and 2p and neither of these stamps have been catalogued by anyone.

tony

[Rein]

I read what Tenorio Casal says and it confuses me.

Does he mean that there are two 1E4s for the 25c,30c,50c,1p,2p?

What I do find is that the 2D was used on the 1p and 2p and neither of these stamps have been catalogued by anyone.

tony

Tony,

if you have the 2D for the 1p and 2p than you need to measure the distance: 35mm [lengthwise! between 2 alternate rows] and it is 2D; 30mm and you have 1E4 [MI 3]!

[Rein]

Rein,

This is a wonderful tidbit. As usual it takes me time to get to it but it is worth comparing the small format and large format 1E4s.

tony

Tony,

bear in mind what José mentioned. The Casa de Moneda had code numbers for the types of sheet-sizes! Not the types of watermarks! He wrote an article on "no 13" thinking it might be "mate lustroso" but it only referred to the type of printing sheet:

thanks to José Merlo, we now know that the numbers used by the Casa de Moneda do NOT refer to a particular type of paper or watermark, BUT to the sizes used in the Printing Works for the printing sheets [pliegos]:

Nº 13 Sheet of 55 x 68 cm (pliego for 2 panes of 200 stamps per sheet) (1/2 to 20c value)
Nº 27 Reel of 28 cm width
Nª 28 Reel of 23 cm width
Nª 29 Sheet of 58 x 80 cm (big enough to print 4 sheets of 100 stamps each of large values [25c to 20p]

So, we might have a 1E4 in no 13 size AND a 1E4 in no 29 size!!!!

[Rein]

Have we met only problems with the ortogonal watermarks of the imported papers! We have also to deal with the Zárate watermarked papers that ONLY exist as orthogonal watermarks!

Dario Bardi uses 4 different types ZA 1 , ZA 2, ZA 3 and ZA 4. ZA 1 and ZA3 are both asymmetrical ["rayado"] and ZA 2 and ZA 4 are both symmetrical ["granulado"]. The ZA 3 and ZA 4 are much whiter!



is a nice example Tony Rubiera has of the 2p Frutas. He refers to it as 1L6 but it is the same paper denoted by Dario Bardi as ZA 2!

The suns are supposedly smaller than the suns of the 1E4 conglomerate!