P&R I Classification

[Rein]

Rubiera:
Desde ya lo felicito muy cálidamente por el hallazgo del 2p frutas en papel de rayos gruesos difusos. Creo que aquí en Argentian nadie los tiene catlogados e incluso creo que Moscatelli no lo tiene. Precisamente porque Moscatelli hizo su colección basado en mi monografía de 1966 me atrevo a sugerir a Ud. trate de conseguirla. Ello le aclarará el panorama pués alli se encuentran detallados todos los papeles tanto mates como tizados y los Zárate. Se indican posiciones de filigranas, medidas de los diámetros de los soles, altura y longitud de ls RA y un montón de cosas más. El ordenamiento está hecho en orden cronológico de modo que paso del papel inglés al holandés, etc. En ese orden están los tizados y luego los Zárate. Fue publicado en el Nº 2 de los cuadrnos de Cesca y tengo entendido que Rein lo tiene.
Como después lo publiqué en las revistas de la ahora SOFIRA yo se las podría mandar pero es tan elevado el costo del franqueo que del mismo tendría que hacerse cargo Ud. y desde luego enviarme su dirección postal.
De esta manera hablaríamos todos el mismo idioma pues aquí todos los coleccionistas de esta serie se basan en mi clasificación, con algunas modificacioned, pués después de la publicación la Casa de Moneda me dió muestras de los papeles con sus orígines y alguna especificación, con lo cual los nombres con los que yo los había "bautizado" quedaron algunos que todavía se usan pero otros ya fueron cambiados, por ejemplo en mi trabajo original llamo "rayos largos ondulados" al que luego resultó ser papel austríaco y así otros.
Si Ud. usa Skipe podemos charlar mediante la web cam. Yo figuro ahí como josé.ramón.merlo. Creo que nos serámuy útil.
Espero su respuesta y lo que Ud. dice respecto a que tiene el 5c y 10c tipografiado en papel mate lustroso confirma que el sello del sobre de Moscatelli existe, pese a que Rein dice (sin decirlo) que es un invento mío.
Lo saludo muy cordialmente.
Merlo

José and Tony,

there is no need at this moment to fight over the types of paper without having done additional research on the stamps themselves or having reliable information from the Casa de Moneda.

The types of paper as published by Dario Bardi in his catalogue is a very good basis to start with. We need to do some tuning maybe as some distinguishable types are not yet embodied in his classification.

to be continued ....

[Rein]

The concordance

Rubiera = Bardi

1E1 = MI 1 !
1E2 = MI 2
1E3a = MI 1 !
1E3b = MI 5 !
1E3c = MI 4
1E4 = MI 3

2D = RR 1

NGR = SF 1 / SF 2 (Bardi had no way of denoting the direction of paper!)
NOP = SF 3

2C = RR 2

1L1 = MI 5 !
1L2 = MI 6
1L3
1L4
1L5 = ZA 1
1L6 = ZA 2

Tony does not recognize ZA 3 and ZA 4 - the 1957-58 period is a bit off the track....

Dario does not split up the MI 1 as Tony does, nor the MI 5....

The Clay types of Tony do not match the TIZADO's of Dario. I think Dario is on the right track but will have some trouble to make it clear....

Dario's MI 7 is a queer one, it got somehow split off from MI 3 [1E4 or Holandés] because of its "lustroso" aspect. This will not hold! There are a lot more stamps around that have much more sheen [calandered] than the "mate lustroso" especially among the MI 1 (1E1/1E3a]. If sheen is a criterium than we should split up MI 1 !

The SF3 (NOP] has a lot of sheen at some stamps what may bring back the Canadensis!

to be continued ....

[rubiera]

Thanks, Rein. Here is a translation of what I started off with this morning.

I have received many questions about this issue and I think the time has come to have a detailed answer for how I clasify P y R I.

Originally I only thought there were six papers:

First watermark Early, 1E
Unwatermarked grid, NGR
Unwatermarked opaque, NOP
Clay, CL
Second watermark, 2
First watermark late, 1L

In 2006, I saw the Moscatelli exhibit at the Washington 2006 international exhibition. This exhibit showed me that there were something like 16 papers. At first I was unable to absorb so much new information. Moscatelli showed measurements in ranges for the RAs, and I knew from looking at so many of these stamps that these measurement ranges weren't particularly enlightening. Sometime in early 2008 I took a look at my 30c 1Es and noticed clear differences. This was the first time I could see that the 1E2, for instance, is very different from the 1E1. I was able to take the next significant step after Rein taught he how to differentiate the three 1E3s.

This is what I know today:

There are six 1E papers.
------------------------------------

1. 1E1 dates from October 1935 and all of 1936. This paper is thick and cream.
2. 1E2 was used in 1937 and 1938. The watermark is usually perpendicular to the 1E1 watermark. This paper is thin and white.

1E3 is very difficult to type because the key differentiating characteristic is the thread pattern on the back of the stamp.

3. 1E3a of 1939, is identical to 1E1 except that the paper is thinner and white. The grid is rectangular and symmetrical (makes a perfect X on the back of the stamp).
4. 1E3b of 1946/47 has a square symmetrical grid.
5. 1E3c of 1941-44, has an asymmetrical rectangular grid. This X is not drawn from the four corners of the stamp. This stamp is porous, making the grid difficult to see. In addition, it has straight lines over the grid. This is one of the most difficult papers to type.

6. 1E4 of 1940 with large RA perpendicular to the 1E1/3 and the same as the 1E2.

I used to think there was a 1E5, but it turned out to be a later paper (the 1E6).

There are at least four clay papers.
----------------------------------------------------

I still need to study these papers in detail. So far, I find at least four:

7. CL1A, with watermark same as the 1E4 but with a light coating on the printed surface. This paper was used for the 5c and 10c Brown typographed stamps during 1939/40. This 10c Brown is very rare on cover.
8. CL1B, 30c, 1p, 2p (the rare one, with dark colors), 20p of 1943. I classify the 40c with dark colors from 1948 as this paper, but I still need to study this stamp in detail.
9. CL2A, 1949 for the 10c, some with very dark blackish brown color.
10. CL2B, 1952, the thin clays, 40c light colors, 50c, 2p.

Second Watermark
-----------------------------

11. Straight Rays diffuse watermark on cream paper from 1943, the 2D. The rarest of these is the elusive 1/2c.
12. Straight Rays clear watermark on white paper from 1949, the 2C. This watermark is found in two directions, meaning that there are two separate types of the watermark roll used to make the paper.

Unwatermarked
------------------------

13. Unwatermarked grid of 1945, NGR.
14. Unwatermarked opaque of 1947/8, NOP. There may be a second NOP for the 20p, which I find used in the mid 1950s.

The late papers.
------------------------
These are best studied using the 50c.

15. 1L1, with straight lines on the back, same watermark as the 1E1/3s, and brilliant colors like the 2C stamp.
16. 1L2 of 1952, big RA, similar paper to the 1E3c.
17. 1L3 of 1955/6, thick white paper with small RA, the 50c has a deep yellow shade for the background.
18. 1L4 similar to the 1L2 but with disfigured RAs from a worn out watermark roll. I doubted their existence but I keep finding them.

19. 1L5, all Zarate. There are at least two: white and onion paper.
20. 1L6, similar to the 1L3 but with a clear rectangular symmetrical grid.

[Rein]

Tony,

I had read your Spanish posting before I wrote mine!

[rubiera]

I know, but I would like the English section to be self-contained. Same as we have many readers who have a hard time with English we could now or in the future have visitors who don't read Spanish.

tony

[Rein]

Señores, sigan poniéndose de acuerdo en nombres y descripciones de los papeles, que los demás trataremos de no hacer ruido hasta que terminen... sólo los saludo y les aseguro que se disfruta mucho una descripción tan clara del tema.
Cordiales saludos,
Néstor.

Nestor,

it is an illusion to think we will ever get a simplified classification that will understand any newbie in this field. The more that there is a strong resistance against any "scientific approach" here and one rather likes to stick to nicknames and semantic bonitos....

We will NEVER come to grips with these types of watermarks UNLESS we accept a few basic notions that are international BEFORE we get to the few idomatic ones. I know you all HATE my GUTS for writing this in this Foro and that this is one of the main reasons for keeping me out of a open, general discussion of philatelic matters ....

to be continued ....

[Rein]

The first cardinal notion that anyone dealing with types of paper or watermarks should know is the DIRECTION of PAPER - cf Eje de Enrollamiento - that corresponds directly to the direction of a turning dandy-roll {bailarin];

Secondly, the PAPER MESH, the reflection of the weave [horizontal and vertical threads] of the paper machine; its densities - number of vertical threads per horizontal [=across the paper machine weave] centimeter and the number of horizontal threads per vertical [=along the paper machine weave] centimeter; its weaving structure - a linen binding or a twill binding....

When the line of AЯ runs along the circumference of the dandy-roll we haved a PARALLEL watermark, when the line of AЯ runs across the dandy-roll [i.e. along the axis of the roll] we have an ORTHOGONAL watermark.

When the weave of the paper mesh has a linen binding, the weave is symmetrical, hence a SYMMETRICAL PAPER MESH, when the weave of the paper mesh has a twill binding, the weave is asymmetrical, hence a ASYMMETRICAL PAPER MESH!


to be continued ....

[Rein]

The side of the paper that was in touch with the weave is called the WIRE SIDE, the opposite side is called the FELT SIDE.

When the felt side got the print, we have the normal situation, and the wire side will have the gum, when however the wire side got the print and the felt side the gum, we have a TRANSPOSED paper [papel traspuesto].

This traspuesto has got NOTHING to do with the fact that we see an AЯ or an RA from the back of the stamp! We can find 4 situations:

wire side [= gum] has AЯ [felt side = front has RA]
felt side [= gum] has AЯ [wire side = front has RA];
wire side [=front] has AЯ [felt side = gum has RA]
felt side [=front] has AЯ [wire side = gum has RA];

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The imprint of the paper machine's weave on the wire side of the paper may be either clearly VISIBLE or hardly at all (DIFFUSE).

When it is clearly visible - always establish the wire side first! - we may be able to measure the densities. What we see is called TRAMA in Spanish and often referred to as "grain" or "granulado" or "grené". These are confusing notions as it does not tell us much about the mesh/weave [trama] being symmetrical or asymmetrical!

When the holes of the mesh are visible as rhombos, we are likely to have the symmetrical version, but it is not always that easy!

The asymmetrical mesh usually has some distortion which will make the horizontal threads more prominent.

Dario Bardi refers consistently to the symmetrical mesh by "granulado" and to the asymmetrical mesh by "rayado". Unfortunately his use of horizontal and vertical is more confusing!

Granulado horizontal = parallel watermark with a symmetrical mesh;
Granulado vertical = orthogonal watermark with a symmetrical mesh;
Rayado vertical = parallel watermark with an Asymmetrical mesh;
Rayado horizontal = orthogonal watermark with an Aysmmetrical mesh.

Of all authors that had published classifications so far [Merlo, Moscatelli, Rubiera, Bardi] ONLY Bardi has let his understanding these basic notions reflect in his publications while simultaneously displaying a fear that he might offend his readers......

to be continued ...

rc2250

[Rein]

Si Ud. usa Skipe podemos charlar mediante la web cam. Yo figuro ahí como josé.ramón.merlo. Creo que nos serámuy útil.
Espero su respuesta y lo que Ud. dice respecto a que tiene el 5c y 10c tipografiado en papel mate lustroso confirma que el sello del sobre de Moscatelli existe, pese a que Rein dice (sin decirlo) que es un invento mío.
Lo saludo muy cordialmente.
Merlo

José,

I am not convinced that the 10c Rivadavia on "mate lustroso" exists and made it clear why in separate threads:

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=3721&start=45
viewtopic.php?f=137&t=3899

[Rein]

Da la casulidad de que su nickname sea Toni y el mío Nito. Pero volviendo a su pregunta del 2 peos tizado grueso le digo que para conocerlo vea con bencina el sello de 20c conmemorativo de la Revolución de 1943. Ese és el verdadero tizado gtrueso
de origen norteamericano, tal cual lo llama la Casa de Moneda pues de ahí se trajo ya que por causas de la WWII se puso en dificultad el seguir importando papel filigranado de Europa. Se distingue por tener un granulado vertical (mal que le pese a Rein) muy notable. Si Ud tiene la fortuna de poseer el bloque Nº 5 de 5c + 50p Pro Catamarca y La Rioja lo verá en todo su esplendor.

José and Tony,

I have often referred to the 1943 Revolution stamps as prime examples of the "Norteamericano" coated paper, as did Dario Bardi => TI 2.

TI 2 has an orthogonal watermark with a Symmetrical paper mesh and the direction of paper always runs parallel with the long side of the stamps [both the medium and the larger sizes]. The symmetry is not so clear at first sight! What is more prominent is the coarse density of the horizontal lines what can have it confused with a "rayado" !

The ONLY way to distinguish it from the other coated papers with orthogonal watermarks is the density!

30/16 against 30/20 - just count the number of horizontal lines!!! Per centimeter 16 lines on top of each other!

The adjective "grueso" is just abundant and adds nothing to us recognizing this type of paper....

[Rein]

Parallel and orthogonal watermarks have coexisted together almost from the beginning of the Multiple Suns + AЯ watermarks [1923] and one may wonder why the paper manufacturers should have bothered to make BOTH! Unless they were expressively order by the Post Office or Casa de Moneda?

The first parallel watermark is supposed to be Dutch:

The CEFILOZA list and the Michel remarks

Diese Ausgabe wurde 1924 auf Holländischem, ab 1927 auf österreichischem Papier gedruckt; beim letztem variert das Wz. zwischen 8-11mm im Kreisdurchmesser.

do conflict, alas! Nevertheless, the CEFILOZA list seems rather reliable!

It recognises 3 main sources of the papers:

- The Netherlands
- Austria
- England

and 2 main types of watermarks: parallel and orthogonal.

Parallel watermark has the direction of paper [eje de enrollamiento] parallel with the line of AЯ; orthogonal has the direction of paper [eje de enrollamiento] perpendicular to the line of AЯ. When the direction of paper is parallel to the long side of the stamp, hence vertical [!] we denote "M' [=mayor], when parallel to the short side, hence horizontal we denote "m" [=menor].

Parallel watermarks originating from - marcas de agua en paralelo procedentes de:

the Netherlands/Países Bajos

= M = Sun/Sol 10x9mm
B = m = Sun /Sol10x9mm; Abierto [whatever that means???]/[lo que significa???]

both can be traspuesta ("a") or not [whatever that means??]/[lo que significa???]

England/Inglaterra

E = m = Sun/Sol 9.5mm; delgado traspuesta
F = M = Sun/Sol 9.5mm; mediano; color apagado
H = M = Sun/Sol 9.5mm; mediano; color vivo fuerte

B,E, F and H are codes by GZ [Carlos Gonzalez] - B, E, F y H son los códigos de GZ [Carlos González]

to be continued ....

[Rein]

This watermark had already had a tradtiion!

But, let's try to get a bit more concrete!

We have TWO parallel watermarks with a symmetrical paper mesh in the PyR I period, the first with a 30/20 density:

• - the black line indicating the direction of paper - la línea negra indica la dirección de papel (eje de enrollamiento)
  - the blue lines the virtual diagonals of the mesh - las líneas azules de las diagonales virtuales de la malla
  - the yellow triangle formed by the hearts of 3 suns - el triángulo amarillo formado por los corazónes de los 3 soles
  - the red line the distance from the heart of the suns within the line of AЯ - la línea roja la distancia desde el corazón de los soles dentro de la línea de AЯ
  - the green line the distance between 2 identical lines of AЯ - la línea verde de la distancia entre 2 líneas idénticas de AЯ
  - the violet lines the diameters of the Sun - las líneas de color violeta de los diámetros del Sol
  
  Paper: parallel to the line of RA
  Symmetrical mesh
  Mesh - virtual shape: lozenges with the longer diagonal parallel to the direction of paper
  Sun: round
  Diameter: 9.5 mm
  Horizontal distance between the hearts of the sun: 18 mm
  Vertical distance between 2 identical lines of RA: 30 mm
  Letters of RA: meet at the base (height 4.5 mm width 8 mm)
  Color: white
  Thickness: medium
  Surface: without coating - matt
  Manufacturer: English.
  Used for the first time in 1939.
  
  This paper is named by various authors as follows:
  Rubiera 1E3a

and the second with a 24/20 density = 1E3c = Tela!

• Direction of paper: parallel to the line of RA
  Symmetrical mesh
  Mesh - virtual shape: little squares
  Sun: round
  Diameter: 10 mm
  Horizontal distance between the hearts of the sun: 17.5 mm
  Vertical distance between 2 identical lines of RA: 30 mm
  Letters of RA: see picture above!
  Used for the first time in 1941.
  
  This paper is named by various authors as follows:
  Rubiera 1E3c
  Bardi, Moscatelli, Merlo Tela

The first is referred to by BArdi as MI 1 [by Tony as 1E1 or 1E3a], the second by Bardi as MI 4 [by Tony as 1E3c].

Rein,

I think your images are the best ones to show the exact configuration of a paper. I will help you and biti for sure.

---------------

Creo que sus imagenes son las mejores para describir exactamente la configuracion de cada papel. Por supuesto que los ayudare.

saludos

tony

[Rein]

The THIRD parallel watermark has an asymmetrical paper mesh and was introduced in at least 2 steps:

in incidental cases since 1944 - a.o. the Earthquake stamps - and in 1951 at full scale!

Dario Bardi refers to it as Rayado vertical [MI 5] whereas Tony refers to it as 1E3b and 1L1 [depending on the period of use].

to be continued ....

[Rein]

• - the black line indicating the direction of paper - la línea negra indica la dirección de papel (eje de enrollamiento)
  - the blue lines the virtual diagonals of the mesh - las líneas azules de las diagonales virtuales de la malla
  - the yellow triangle formed by the hearts of 3 suns - el triángulo amarillo formado por los corazónes de los 3 soles
  - the red line the distance from the heart of the suns within the line of AЯ - la línea roja la distancia desde el corazón de los soles dentro de la línea de AЯ
  - the green line the distance between 2 identical lines of AЯ - la línea verde de la distancia entre 2 líneas idénticas de AЯ
  - the violet lines the diameters of the Sun - las líneas de color violeta de los diámetros del Sol
  
  Paper: parallel to the line of RA
  ASymmetrical mesh
  Mesh - virtual shape: lozenges with the longer diagonal parallel to the direction of paper
  Sun: round
  Diameter: 10.0 mm
  Horizontal distance between the hearts of the sun: 17.7 mm
  Vertical distance between 2 identical lines of RA: 29.8 mm
  Letters of RA: see picture above
  Color: white
  Thickness: medium
  Surface: without coating - matt
  Manufacturer: English?.
  Used for the first time in 1944.
  
  This paper is named by various authors as follows:
  Rubiera 1E3b and 1L1, Bardi MI 5

rc2256