Dandy roll

[Rein]

Estimada clelia: No esta mal la idea, sin embargo, la forma en la que se hace la filigrana es pasar la pasta de papel por un rodillo con la marca a imprimirse en relieve (balancin) que ejerce presion sobre la misma produciendo un adelgazamiento del papel y por ende dejando la marca de agua. Es por esto que el "patron" que se genera sobre la plancha, no necesariamente es del tamaño de la misma sino que depende del radio y longitud del balancin .Por otra parte hay que tener en cuenta que los tamaños de los bordes de hoja pueden variar. Te adjunto un par de imagenes de la revista de SOFIRA, en donde podes ver una foto del Presidente (Ing Ramon Merlo ) junto a un bailarin, y otra con el detalle del mismo






Una explicación muchisimo mas detallada del proceso, la podes encontrar en la revista editada por SOFIRA de Marzo del 2007 ( podes comprar ejemplares viejos en la sede de sofira, tucuman 672 1ro 2 o podes consultar por email a sofira@sofira.org.ar )

Trabajo a mano:

[filatemusico]

Tradicionalmente se ha creído que la marca de agua se produce por un adelgazamiento del papel pero en esto no estoy completamente de acuerdo.
Cuando la pasta entra en la malla para escurrirse es 99.5 % agua y solamente 0.5% fibras de papel el dandy roll se coloca sobre la malla donde pasa la pasta cuando ésta es todavía más del 90% agua (de ahí le viene el nombre de marca de agua) entonces ¿cómo puede adelgazarse algo que es 90% agua, lo que sucede es algo similar a cuando pisamos en un charco de lodo, las partículas de tierra mezcladas con agua salen expulsadas y cuando levantamos el pie el agua puede regresar rápidamente pero de las partículas de tierra solo una pequeña cantidad puede regresar quedando nuestra huella marcada, lo mismo sucede cuando el dandy roll pasa sobre la pasta es decir en el lugar de la marca de agua hay muchas menos fibras, también esa es la razón por la que el bailarín es una malla de alambre y no un cilindro cerrado para poder permitir que se de este efecto. El echo de que la marca de agua tenga menos fibras de papel permite que la bencina penetre más rapidamente en la marca de agua volviendo el papel más transparente, (todo sabemos que conforme la bencina penetra el papel la marca de agua va siendo menos visible)
En México a principios de los años 50s se utilizó la marca de agua MEX-MEX con un circulo uniendo estas letras (Scott 300), entrando los años 60s se utiliza una marca de agua diferente (Scott 350) y se alternan estas marcas de agua, pero en 1973 con la entrada de los papeles estucados satinados se comienza a utilizar una marca que es la misma figura de la Scott 300 pero esta ya no es una marca de agua, ya que al parecer no se realizó con un dandy roll sino que aparentement se hizo en el momento del calandrado por medio de presión a manera de tipografía. La principal característica de esta marca es que LA BENCINA ES INÚTIL PARA PODER VISUALIZARLA, aun que la marca sea visible a simple vista ya que según mi teoría al contener la misma cantidad de fibras tanto en la marca como fuera de ella la bencina penetra a la misma velocidad, en algunos casos se produce el efecto contrario, es decir la marca permanece mas clara ya que por la compresión que recibió la bencina penetra más lentamente (aunque este efecto se da por un muy brevísimo periodo de tiempo).

[Rein]

José,

I do not quite get your posting. Must be my lack of Spanish...

Bear in mind that although the felt side of the paper receives the print of the dandy-roll [watermark] and that is quite often the front side of the stamp, it does not always happen that way!!!

Coated paper usually has the felt side gummed and the wire side coated and printed! This means that the pressure of the dandy-roll patterns come from the back of the stamp and this may result in a relief at the front of the stamp!

The so-called norte americano coated paper [1943] has the wire side coated which is the side that got printed! You can see the wire structure clearly from the front.

saludos, Rein

[filatemusico]

Rein:
I am sorry I forgot that this post is in the language of Shakespeare.

Translation:

Usually many people believe that WMK in created by thinning of paper but I don't quite agree with that.
When pulp flows out onto the moving wire belt it is 99.5% water and only 0.5% 0.5-1.0% fiber. Dandy roll is placed on the wire when pulp is more than 90% water (that is the reason why it is called watermark) then how dandy roll can tin something that is 90% water?
What happens is something similar like when we step into a mud pond soil, particles jump out then when we lift the foot water quickly comes back but very few soil particles returns leaving our footprint. The same thing happens with dady roll, it means that in wmk there are less fibers, that is the reason dandy roll is a wire-mesh and not a closed cylinder. The fact that the wmk has les fibers allow benzine penetrate more quickly making paper more transparent. (as we all know, as soon the benzine penetrate all paper wmk is becoming less visible).

In México to the start of 1950’s was used the wmk MEX-MEX with a circle connecting the text (Scott 300) in the 1960’s was used another wmk (Scott 350) but in 1973 with the introduction of chalky paper a new wmk like Scott 300 begins to be used but it is not a watermark because apparently it was made in the moment of calendered with pression like embossing, the main feature of this mark is that the BENZINE IS USELESS TO SEE THE MARK even if the mark is visible to the naked eye. I think that it happen because the mark has the same quantity of fibers of the rest of paper then the benzine penetrate at the same speed, in some cases the effect is contrary to a wmk, the mark keeps dry but it happen in fractions of second.

[Rein]

José,

when looking through the paper towards a light source, the area of the watermark pattern is much brighter! I would say that there the paper is thinner, fibers having been pushed aside not compressed! A higher concentration of fibers would have prevented the light shining through....

saludos, Rein

[Rein]

José,

I do have several Mexican stamps of that period but mainly in mint condition!

As far as I can see the first stamps on coated paper have the coating on the felt side so where the watermark was applied. Ony later issues - I have also seen this on the Exporta - have the coating on the wire side! The felt side can be seen on used stamps [with the gum removed] as they have a lot of tiny holes in the surface and practically no grooves!

saludos, Rein

[filatemusico]

Rein

When I have a damaged stamp I do not throw them away because I can make things like these.
I separate this paper by the middle, the left is the gummed side and the right is the printed side.
As you can see the mark is only in the printed side, the phosphorescent ink penetrated the paper and it can be seen with an UV lamp, the mark affected the coating, then I think that the mark was made immediately after the coating process when it was fresh.

Do you agree Rein?

Saludos, José

[Rein]

José,

I am beginning to get your point!

But I will need to see the particular stamps myself!

Which Mexican stamps are involved???

saludos, Rein

[Rein]

Rein

When I have a damaged stamp I do not throw them away because I can make things like these.
I separate this paper by the middle, the left is the gummed side and the right is the printed side.
As you can see the mark is only in the printed side, the phosphorescent ink penetrated the paper and it can be seen with an UV lamp, the mark affected the coating, then I think that the mark was made immediately after the coating process when it was fresh.

Do you agree Rein?

Saludos, José

José,

this reminds me of the Argentina stamps around 1970 [1p girasol a.o.]. What I see is that the coating does not completely has covered the surface of the stamp. There where the watermark had been applied to the front of the stamp, the watermark pattern had made an indent in the surface - as it should! - and the UV-light shows us the optical brightening agents inside the paper pulp. The coating itself does reflect the violet - there seems to be no phosphorescence!

And also bear in mind that various types of paper had been used in this period. The type of paper I referred to in a previous posting with the felt side gummed [1975-1977] and the English type of paper with a coarse paper wire showing horizontal line [rayado horizontal] - the lines being orthogonal to the direction of paper! This English [?] paper is still observed in the 1979 University Games stamps with clearly visible imprints of the watermark pattern at the front of the stamp!!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Some examples:





Felt side gummed:



Wire side gummed:



to be continued ...

[Rein]

Felt side gummed!













to be continued ...

[Rein]

Felt side gummed:








to be continued ...

[Rein]

Felt side gummed:







to be continued ...

[Rein]

Rein

When I have a damaged stamp I do not throw them away because I can make things like these.
I separate this paper by the middle, the left is the gummed side and the right is the printed side.
As you can see the mark is only in the printed side, the phosphorescent ink penetrated the paper and it can be seen with an UV lamp, the mark affected the coating, then I think that the mark was made immediately after the coating process when it was fresh.

Do you agree Rein?

Saludos, José

José,

I must have understood you wrong! You wrote the right is the printed side, the left the gummed side...





I can NOT seen any phosphorescence in your images! Unless it is the whitish shine in the watermark pattern and the violet shine is the UV-reflection?!

The watermark is an orthogonal one with the MEX-MEX line perpendicular to the direction of paper.

To which of the Exportas types of paper do you refer???? I might even expect the "Filigrana No" to be a mis-observation??

http://www.galeon.com/timbresdemexico/m ... /index.htm

Características de las distintas series de México Exporta
1a. serie 1975-81
Papel: Satinado delgado, de 85 gms/m²
Goma: Brillante blanca y/o crema
Luminiscencia: Fosforescencia anverso
Filigrana: No
Perforación: 14 y 11

2a. serie 1977-82
Papel: Satinado grueso, de 97 gms/m²
Goma: Mate marfil
Luminiscencia: Fosforescencia anverso (como en la 1a. serie)
Filigrana: MEX-MEX y Águila en Círculo Abierto
Perforación: 14 y 11

3a. serie 1981-89
Papel: No satinado, muy delgado, de 65 gms/m²
Goma: Blanca brillante
Luminiscencia: Fluorescencia anverso y reverso
Filigrana: No
Perforación: 14, 11 y 11½

4a. serie 1981-82
Papel: Satinado grueso, de 97 gms/m² (como en la 2a. serie)
Goma: Mate marfil
Luminiscencia: Fosforescencia anverso (como en la 1a. y 2a. series)
Filigrana: No
Perforación: 14, 11 y 11½

5a. serie 1981-83
Papel: Satinado delgado, de 80 gms/m²
Goma: Blanca brillante
Luminiscencia: Fluorescencia anverso
Filigrana: No
Perforación: 14 y 11½ x 11

6a. serie 1982-84
Papel: Satinado delgado, de 85 gms/m² (como en la 1a. serie)
Goma: Blanca brillante (como en la 5a. serie)
Luminiscencia: Fluorescencia anverso y reverso
Filigrana: No
Perforación: 14 y 11½

to be continued ...

[filatemusico]

Rein.
It is a little difficult to me explain this process in English:
You have to destroy a stamp for to do this therefore I recommend doing it in damaged stamps.
You have to separate the gummed side of the printed side, images can explain better this process:





these images are only with UV light

it can be seen only without the gummed side because the phosphorescent ink penetrated slightly the paper.
if you ilumiate the stamps whit UV light the gummed side you can see the mark.