Próceres y Riqueza volume I - fake ministerials

[Rein]

Some time ago I found two 50c Petroleo stamps with ministerials on them, but printed on a type of paper that was not possible. Tela [MI4/1E3c] of 1941!

Now we have several 1c Sarmiento that have been printed on rayado vertical [MI5/1L1] of 1950!










What they have in common is the round tops and the high "belly" of the "M"! Compare it with a real copy:

[Rein]

This one is very special! A partial "double impression"!

[Rein]

Parallel watermark, symmetrical paper mesh = granulado horizontal [MI1/1E1].



rc2178

[Rein]

The 50c Petroleo with Ministerials I have are all Tela [1E3c/MI4] or the 24/20 density of a symmetrical paper mesh in combination with a parallel watermark. This type of paper was first noticed in February 1941!

[Rein]

These fake "overprints" for the PyR I Ministerials have too much in common to be incidentally manufactured fakes. Made in the 1950-ies? The 1c has a year of 1953!

Any publication in the philatelic literature of that period????

rc2180

[rubiera]

These are great finds. I wonder why anyone would bother with a stamp dated 1953?

I have been looking at my selection and all I have look genuine. I wonder if these are from a European faker? I see the point of faking the faboluously rare 50c ones, but the others? I don't get it.

tony

[Rein]

These are great finds. I wonder why anyone would bother with a stamp dated 1953?

I have been looking at my selection and all I have look genuine. I wonder if these are from a European faker? I see the point of faking the faboluously rare 50c ones, but the others? I don't get it.

tony

Tony,

the Ministerials on the PyR I get prices in the GJ'09 ranging from 0.20-0.30 - practically all of them - at least the centavos values - so there is no need to fake them on the basis of the catalogue "value"; the problem may be the real scarcity that forces fakers to supply missing items .....

Why are the prices in M.T. or G.J. so unrealistic???

[jorgec]

These are great finds. I wonder why anyone would bother with a stamp dated 1953?

I said it many times. Forgeries don't follow common sense. It is naive to believe, and will misguide you if you do, that only rare and expensive items are forged.

I have all sort of forgeries. And I would say that I have more forgeries of common items, than rare ones. I have lots of forgeries of extremelly common types. I have forgeries of stamps that are much rarer and much more expensive without the overprint. I have forgeries that are so badly done, that nobody could be fooled, and you come to think that the forger never saw the original. Forgers do not follow common sense. Certainly not when talking about these overprints, which are far easier to make than a complete stamp forgery.

[jorgec]

I see the point of faking the faboluously rare 50c ones,...

the Ministerials on the PyR I get prices in the GJ'09 ranging from 0.20-0.30 - practically all of them - at least the centavos values - ...Why are the prices in M.T. or G.J. so unrealistic???

People, please be careful about this. Absolutely no stamp in this set is "fabulously rare"!

Most stamps in this set are very common, and they deserve the minimum price in the catalog. There are, of course, a few scarce items, among them there is probably a single type that I would qualify as rare (but certainly not a rarity, and it is not any 50c stamp). Possibly some of these are a bit underpriced. But there are probably more over-priced ones. Especially in GJ that it seems that automatically, and wrongly, assumes that all 15c, 20c JMG, 1 Peso with limits, and 10c Type I, are rare.

I don't know why you assume some of these stamps are very rare. I can only think that your stock is mostly based on "paqueteria" (sorry, don't know the term in english), and cheap collections, where most of the scarcer items were already removed. Or may be Tony insists in counting only used stamps? If so, then many items are indeed "rare" because many of these types were hardly used if at all. The fact that many of the types were hardly used, makes them also hard to find in "paqueteria" that usually includes only stamps without gum.

[rubiera]

Jorge, Rein:

The key point here is that these stamps mint were not sold to collectors. Someone had to steal them....right? Or maybe the post office sold the remainders to dealers? In my opinion, the ones that served postal use are guaranteed to have been 'real stamps.' The regulars are another story. A mint 20p regular 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) cost someone a very dear 20 pesos in 1936, and that was serious money back then. And the regulars were sold to collectors but at full face value, not by the pound.

About rarity:

The 10cR I, 50c, and 1p (limits, without limits) I find to be rare mint.

These used are also very rare.....I am serious, I still only have one lousy 10c MG type I in very poor quality, and am missing the 3c M..M and the 1p MRC with limits, as well as 1 p MM without limits on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) and 1E2 (Austriaco, 1937) , and almost all the others on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936).

If anyone has these, let me know....I need them.

Jorge:

paqueteria: packets

saludos

tony

[Rein]

People, please be careful about this. Absolutely no stamp in this set is "fabulously rare"!

Most stamps in this set are very common, and they deserve the minimum price in the catalog. There are, of course, a few scarce items, among them there is probably a single type that I would qualify as rare (but certainly not a rarity, and it is not any 50c stamp). Possibly some of these are a bit underpriced. But there are probably more over-priced ones. Especially in GJ that it seems that automatically, and wrongly, assumes that all 15c, 20c JMG, 1 Peso with limits, and 10c Type I, are rare.

Jorge,

why be careful about it??? The catalogue makers have the monopoly of setting prices and with hardly any market, the prices remain at that level...

What is the value of a catalogue price??? I prefer to see higher prices so people jump out to sell their copies only to find out that there are enough of them on this small market!?

It is a pity that Dario Bardi has not dealt with the ministerials nor the servicio oficial. But also some of his regulars are underestimated. If they exist at all! Show me a 1/2c Belgrano on rayado vertical? For $1.-???? I am gladly willing to pay $5.- per copy; $25.- for a block of 4.... A 1c Sarmiento on granulado vertical [m] for $500 ???? Anyone who can vouch for it????

[Rein]

These are great finds. I wonder why anyone would bother with a stamp dated 1953?

I said it many times. Forgeries don't follow common sense. It is naive to believe, and will misguide you if you do, that only rare and expensive items are forged.

I have all sort of forgeries. And I would say that I have more forgeries of common items, than rare ones. I have lots of forgeries of extremelly common types. I have forgeries of stamps that are much rarer and much more expensive without the overprint. I have forgeries that are so badly done, that nobody could be fooled, and you come to think that the forger never saw the original. Forgers do not follow common sense. Certainly not when talking about these overprints, which are far easier to make than a complete stamp forgery.

Jorge,

I prefer to have as little fakes as possible in my collection. And when I come across them I want to know how to recgonize them and find out about their origin... Overprints have always been the favourite pass time of forgerers, so I usually keep miles away from them...

Answering my question?! Have you come across the type of fakes I was displaying???

[Rein]

Jorge, Rein:

The key point here is that these stamps mint were not sold to collectors. Someone had to steal them....right? Or maybe the post office sold the remainders to dealers? In my opinion, the ones that served postal use are guaranteed to have been 'real stamps.' The regulars are another story. A mint 20p regular 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) cost someone a very dear 20 pesos in 1936, and that was serious money back then. And the regulars were sold to collectors but at full face value, not by the pound.

About rarity:

The 10cR I, 50c, and 1p (limits, without limits) I find to be rare mint.

These used are also very rare.....I am serious, I still only have one lousy 10c MG type I in very poor quality, and am missing the 3c M..M and the 1p MRC with limits, as well as 1 p MM without limits on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) and 1E2 (Austriaco, 1937) , and almost all the others on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936).

If anyone has these, let me know....I need them.

Jorge:

paqueteria: packets

saludos

tony

Tony,

how come I have quite a lot of mint copies in blocks or partial sheets??? Let us assume the Post Office sold them to the highest bidder i.e. the stamp dealers. Does seem to make sense to me!

Mint copies of the regulars have been paid for in hard cash as Tony suggests. During World War II in the Netherlands paper money wasn't worth a thing, people sought refuge in stamps. The Post Office did reprint several otherwise unnecessary stamps like Airmails [no airmail allowed under German occupation!] just to make philatelists happy! How was the situation in Argentina then???

[jorgec]

The key point here is that these stamps mint were not sold to collectors. Someone had to steal them....right? Or maybe the post office sold the remainders to dealers? In my opinion, the ones that served postal use are guaranteed to have been 'real stamps.' The regulars are another story. A mint 20p regular 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) cost someone a very dear 20 pesos in 1936, and that was serious money back then. And the regulars were sold to collectors but at full face value, not by the pound.

I think this might be an interesting topic, if you want to start a debate about this, we might perhaps open a thread on the official sub-forum. But the point is, that most collectors, and the market, do not agree with this approach. Most collectors, right or wrong, don't care about this. And the catalogs are, at least in this case, correct in reflecting the prices accordingly.

So I think that whenever you talk about rarity of these stamps, you should explicitely say if you are talking about the rarity in used cancelled condition. Otherwise you will probably confuse most readers.

Btw, I would suspect that most mint 20p regulars (not officials) copies available now, were not bought formally at the post. Probably most of them have a similar origin as the official ones.

why be careful about it??? The catalogue makers have the monopoly of setting prices and with hardly any market, the prices remain at that level...
What is the value of a catalogue price??? I prefer to see higher prices so people jump out to sell their copies only to find out that there are enough of them on this small market!?

Hmm, you must be the first collector I found that would like catalog prices to be higher!

For most people, the problem is usually that they can find the stamps, but they can't afford them. Not the opposite. Catalog prices, at least here, have a very strong influence in the market. Most sellers would automatically, and immediately, increase their prices when a new catalog comes out with higher prices.

The claim that higher prices would bring more copies to the market, is IMHO, a fallacy (a fallacy mentioned by catalog makers many times, strange that you agree with them So some stamps are valued at, say, 0.50. Do you think that those people that don't want to sell them, will suddenly jump to the market if they are now valued, at say, 2.00 ? Of course not, at least not in most cases. Now, if a stamp is valued at, say, 2.00, and you change it to say, $100.00, then yes, you will probably see more sellers. But of course, you probably won't find any buyers at that price, and nobody will be happy (would you? ).

Regardless, low catalog prices influence more the dealer buying, than the dealer selling! If a stamp is grossly underpriced in the catalog, and you go to buy it from a dealer. The dealer will charge you a much higher price. It will tell you, that it is a mistake in the catalog. And you would probably have to agree with him.

I prefer to have as little fakes as possible in my collection...Answering my question?! Have you come across the type of fakes I was displaying???

Of course that fakes should not me mixed with genuine stamps. But being a collector specialized in the topic, I collect forgeries as well (obviously, separated from the genuine ones).

I don't remember if I have seen exactly the same forgeries (exactly same overprint, and on same base stamp) you show. But I have seen forgeries very similar to them, possibly from the same origin. Contrary to the older (baston) overprints, forgeries of the serif/perfiladas overprints are not very common.

[jorgec]

About rarity:
The 10cR I, 50c, and 1p (limits, without limits) I find to be rare mint.

I assume that there is a "some", or "most", word missing in that sentence. In which case it might be still a bit of an over-statement, but it would make some sense. I do hope you don't mean that all of them (all these types in all the 8 departments) are rare mint, because that would simply be not true.

Anyway, there is IMHO a difference between scarce, rare, and "fabulously rare". When I hear the latter, I think in something that exists in very small quantities, say, less than a total of 100 copies in the whole world. You probably agree with me, that this is not nearly the case in any of these stamps.

These used are also very rare.....I am serious, I still only have one lousy 10c MG type I in very poor quality

The 10c MG Type I is a rare stamp, especially in unused condition, definitely the rarest in this set. And this is the only stamp that I would qualify as rare. There are others that are scarce, but not really very rare.

However note a couple of things. In this case, it is rarer in unused, than used condition. It is still scarce in used condition as well, but not that much (I believe I have it on cover). In unused condition is rare, but not a rarity. It is not something that I would nearly qualify as "fabulously rare".

...and am missing the 3c M..M and the 1p MRC with limits, as well as 1 p MM without limits on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936) and 1E2 (Austriaco, 1937) , and almost all the others on 1E1 (Ingles, 1936). If anyone has these, let me know....I need them.

Hmm, but most of these are varieties (M..M), or un-catalogued (the different papers) types. We can't mix the rarity of these "varieties" with the main types, otherwise we should also mention double and inverted overprints, in which case, of course, that there would be some quite rare items.

All the 1p are pretty scarce in used condition, some even quite rare (but common, or at least not so rare in unused condition). Most of the stamps in this set were used for domestic postage only. For that reason, this highest value, one full peso, was probably used mostly for big packets, and then most of them didn't survive.

I'm not quite sure the 1p without limit on the oldest paper was issued in all the 8 departments (I assume you are talking about this when you are saying "almost all the others"). I think that in some departments, this stamp was issued only on the paper "austriaco". But I would need to double check it.

Regardless, send me a complete list of your missings in all the officials by PM. I'm afraid I won't provide rare items (such as the 10c MG Type I), hope you understand. But I think you miss some types that are not so rare, that I probably have enough copies and then I won't mind.