Sammlergemeinschaft Lateinamerika Germany

[Rein]

The German Latin American Study Circle has published in recent years some remarkable studies on Argentina!

José Merlo had already urged me to get in touch with this German Study Circle knowing I can read and speak German. He told me that - the no 65 of their Magazine in particular - was a real MUST as it contains a formidable article on the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown!

This week the chairman Jörg Maier sent me the copy and I must say the article is a revelation in many respects.. Written by Hans-Werner Weske who wrote apparently several installments on the PyR I series!





to be continued ...

[Rein]

The article was written by Hans-Werner Weske who wrote apparently several installments on the PyR I series!



Judging from the extensive introduction Weske must have had access to Argentina literature like DeLuca, Kneitschel, Klass, Samowerskyj to name a few....

As Weske wrote, the various Argentina publications had their own way of describing the types of papers used applying notions that are not always their own and simply copied from others... Several term are quite confusing such as lustroso, brilloso, satinado, tizado, etc.. This sounds quite familiar and Weske suggests to stick to simply coated and uncoated and not paying much attention to the shiny aspects...

to be continued ...

[Rein]

The text about the coated papers reflects the perpetuous discussion and should not be accepted as such!



The first coated paper - 20.03.1939 - is supposed to be of North American origin and the second of English!

This needs a lot of re-working still....

What is certainly interesting is where Weske got the information about the offset-litho press!!

Printing sheets of 103x67cm - as assumed by Merlo in the case of the Evitas! - that contained 4 sheets of 200! The printng sheet was perforated first and then cut up in 4 equal sheets!

Weske cannot have concluded this from his own observations! If he is right, it would mean that the 2 sheets [or panes as I prefer to call them!] should have both the left and the right margins perforated all the way!

As far as I know, there are no sheets found with these 2 margins perforated throughout!!!!

Quite a revelation is the existence of dated stamps with a 1939 cancellation for the offset-litho!

I am afraid there was some miscommunication here

to be continued ....

[Rein]

The various shades of brown get discussed by Weske and he devotes several pages to show us the printings and their shades!






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[Rein]

Hans-Werner Weske distinguishes 21 different types of paper! In this article he refers only to the ones needed for the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown.

The types of paper are discussed very thoroughly although in a - for me anyhow - rather soft manner! No concrete data just words....



What is striking in this fragment is the statement that this type of paper - Papier 12A - was used in the P&R I only for the 10c!!!! This does not agree with what Leopoldo Tenorio Cassal had taught us!! The first production paper had been used for both the 5c Moreno and the 10c Rivadavia! Diameter 10mm, intersolar distances 29.7mm [vertically] and 16.8mm [horizontally]







At least we have the reference numbers to show us the stamps with the same type of paper!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

Weske refers to 21 different types of paper - not all of them used for the 10c Rivadavia chestnut-brown.

Trying to see what the types of paper are we start in a numerical order:

No 2 = MI 3 the so-called Dutch paper or Stinnes paper of 1940.

No 3 = MI 4 the so-called Tela or Wiggins Teape paper of 1941-1945

No 6 late = MI 5 the so-called rayado vertical, trhe asyymmetrical parallel watermark of Wiggins Teape




No 8 = SF 1/2 the no watermark papers with visible grain!
No 9 = SF 3 the no watermark paper with no grain at all

No 10 = RR 1 the so-calleld rayos rectos difusos of 1942-1943
No 11 = RR 2 the so-called rayos rectos nitidos of 1948-1956



Weske states here that the Casa de Moneda still had quite a quantity of RR 2 paper left over by 1956. The use of it for the 3 pesos Evita was accidental, not planned. Commemorative stamps of Uruguay issued on 15.12.1956 and printed by the Casa de Moneda were a good opportunity to finally get rid of that paper!!!

to be continued ....

[Rein]

No 12A = TI 1 the so-called first production of coated paper of 1939 - American according to Weske
No 12B = TI 2 the so-called third production of coated paper of 1943 - Weske refers to the Revolution stamps of 1944 but clearly that must have been 1943; English according to Weske
No 12C = TI 5 the so-called rayado horizontal of 1951; indeed English = Wiggins Teape

Why he did not use separate numbers for these 3 types of paper????

No 14 = TI 4 the so-called Tizado Tela ; indeed English = Wiggins Teape





to be continued ...

[Rein]

No 16 = ZA 1 the so-called Zárate Rayado horizontal

No 17 = ZA 2 the so-called Zárate Granulado Verticall

No 18 = ZA 3/4 the so-called Zárate Blanco

Weske does not see the differences in the wire!





to be continued ...

[leonardoleidi]

I CAN´T SEE THE IMAGES

[Rein]

I CAN´T SEE THE IMAGES

Leonardo,

please try again!

[leonardoleidi]

Thank you!

[Rein]

After having described the types of paper he recognizes Weske does give us some tables with as one the items the differences in the deisgn measurements!





He mixes everything - printing method and type of design! As to the latter, he hasn't come up with more types than so far acknowledged in Argentina philately! Which means that at least up to 2004 Argentina philately has NOT come up with anything new in that respect after the discovery in 1949 of the rectanqular left collar!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Naming the types of the offset-litho stamps types I and II may give confusion by simultaneously naming the only relevant type here of the typgraphy stamps also type I! Instead of type II - it is the same type we have already met in the 10c red!

Yes, he does stress the differences but still! Typography and offset-litho should NOT get mixed up! An offense often made in this Foro as well.....

Interesting is his measuring the height and width of the design! We may wonder how accurate you can do so!? In typography the outlines of the frame are often extended /thicker due to the pressing of the relief into the paper.

Let us assume that the measurements are adequate, then it is the height that got reduced - in typography - from 26.8 to 26.0 (26.2, 26.3) hence 3% reduction! The width from 20.0/20.2 to 19.5/20.0 hence 2.5% but its variation may not help to be decisive! Leaves us with the height!

Still we may establish 2 groups:
- 20.0/20.2 x 26.8 until 1944
- 19.5./19.8 x 26.0/26.2(3) 1944-1951

In my postings I dealt with 3 types: type II/III [rather II, IIA and III mixed un-systematically in the plate!] and type IV. it is type IV probably that represents the smaller size of Weske!

to be continued ...

[Rein]

As to the offset-litho stamps Weske sees only the two design types discovered in 1949!

Typ I = linker Kragenrand glatt [round left collar] and typ II = linker Kragenrand mit spitze [rectangular left collar].

Here too, Argentina philately has not seen anything else in the last 60 years as far as the design types go! Not even the re-appearance of type I had not made anyone suspicious!

Weske does recognize 4 groups of measurements for his type I:

- 20.0/(20.3) x 26.5 in 1939-1941; 20.2/20.5 x 26.5 in 1942-1944
- 20.0/20.3 x 26.0/26.2 in 1949-1950
- 20.0 x 26.3 in 1949-1952
-20.0 x 26.0 in 1954 and later (the S.O. version has a mysterious no watermark variant with no dates known!]

The last group belongs to my type C!

But what about the earlier 3 groups??? What do the minor differences tell you??? The quality of the papers???

What I have found out earlier is that in type A - as I call it - we can find 3 characteristics that are found in ALL types of paper of this design type....

to be continued ...

[Rein]

Weske does recognize 3 groups of measurements for his type II:

- 20.0/20.3 x 26.0/26.2 in 1949-1950
- 20.0 x 26.3 in 1949-1952
- 20.0 x 26.0 in 1954 and later

The last group has the same dimensions as my type C! A coincidence???

But what about the earlier 2 groups??? What do the minor differences tell you??? The quality of the papers???
The third is interesting as it runs parallel to the type C! Why have TWO different designs for the offset-litho be used simultaneously for a couple of years???

And as the dimensions are smaller, can we assume a new plate for the type B - as I prefer to call it - as well???

to be continued ...